From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Tue Oct 1 04:32:42 2002 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 11:08:54 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Tha=EE?= Le Tat Subject: pb with datetostr This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------------7NhE3WuB9OnU6N9D2A0R5Y7 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In a local procedure, I have the following : #define FMT_LOGDATE 'YYYY/MM/DD HH:MI:SS' let $log = datetostr(datenow(),{FMT_LOGDATE}) display $log My output is : 2002.10.01 11.06.35 Why ? (I want to have something like 2002/10/01 11:06:35). Regards, Thai ------------7NhE3WuB9OnU6N9D2A0R5Y7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ce message contient des informations confidentielles ou appartenant au Cr=e9dit Lyonnais et est =e9tabli =e0 l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires. Toute divulgation, utilisation, diffusion ou reproduction (totale ou partielle) de ce message, ou des informations qu'il contient, doit =eatre pr=e9alablement autoris=e9e. Tout message =e9lectronique est susceptible d'alt=e9ration et son int=e9grit=e9 ne peut =eatre assur=e9e. Le Cr=e9dit Lyonnais d=e9cline toute responsabilit=e9 au titre de ce message s'il a =e9t=e9 modifi=e9 ou falsifi=e9. Si vous n'=eates pas destinataire de ce message, merci de le d=e9truire imm=e9diatement et d'avertir l'exp=e9diteur de l'erreur de distribution et de la destruction du message. Cr=e9dit Lyonnais, SA au capital de Euros 1.807.874.827 - RCS Lyon B 954 509 741 Si=e8ge Central : 19, boulevard des Italiens. 75002 Paris. France This e-mail contains confidential information or information belonging to Cr=e9dit Lyonnais and is intended solely for the addressees. The unauthorised disclosure, use, dissemination or copying (either whole or partial) of this e-mail, or any information it contains, is prohibited. E-mails are susceptible to alteration and their integrity cannot be guaranteed. Cr=e9dit Lyonnais shall not be liable for this e-mail if modified or falsified. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, please delete it immediately from your system and notify the sender of the wrong delivery and the mail deletion. Cr=e9dit Lyonnais SA. Share Capital of Euros 1.807.874.827. Registered Office : Lyon (B 954 509 741) Central and administative Office : 19, boulevard des Italiens. 75002 Paris. France. ------------7NhE3WuB9OnU6N9D2A0R5Y7-- From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Tue Oct 1 18:00:18 2002 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:36:57 -0700 From: David Thorburn Subject: Re: pb with datetostr Please check the section of your SQR Manual under Edit Masks. Regards, David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thaî Le Tat" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:08 AM Subject: pb with datetostr > > In a local procedure, I have the following : > > #define FMT_LOGDATE 'YYYY/MM/DD HH:MI:SS' > let $log = datetostr(datenow(),{FMT_LOGDATE}) > display $log > > My output is : > 2002.10.01 11.06.35 > > Why ? > > (I want to have something like 2002/10/01 11:06:35). > > Regards, > Thai > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Ce message contient des informations confidentielles ou appartenant au Crédit Lyonnais et est établi à l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires. Toute divulgation, utilisation, diffusion ou reproduction (totale ou partielle) de ce message, ou des informations qu'il contient, doit être préalablement autorisée. Tout message électronique est susceptible d'altération et son intégrité ne peut être assurée. Le Crédit Lyonnais décline toute responsabilité au titre de ce message s'il a été modifié ou falsifié. Si vous n'êtes pas destinataire de ce message, merci de le détruire immédiatement et d'avertir l'expéditeur de l'erreur de distribution et de la destruction du message. Crédit Lyonnais, SA au capital de Euros 1.807.874.827 - RCS Lyon B 954 509 741 Siège Central : 19, boulevard des Italiens. 75002 Paris. France This e-mail contains confidential information or information belonging to Crédit Lyonnais and is intended solely for the addressees. The unauthorised disclosure, use, dissemination or copying (either whole or partial) of this e-mail, or any information it contains, is prohibited. E-mails are susceptible to alteration and their integrity cannot be guaranteed. Crédit Lyonnais shall not be liable for this e-mail if modified or falsified. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, please delete it immediately from your system and notify the sender of the wrong delivery and the mail deletion. Crédit Lyonnais SA. Share Capital of Euros 1.807.874.827. Registered Office : Lyon (B 954 509 741) Central and administative Office : 19, boulevard des Italiens. 75002 Paris. France. From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Tue Oct 1 05:39:51 2002 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 06:22:39 -0400 From: Pamela Lantzy Subject: Dynamic SQL - From clause I have seen this in a couple SQRs, but I am not sure what this does. FROM [PS_COMMUNICATION:$table] V $table gets populated with a different table name. There isnt a comma to separate the 2 tables. In the where clause there is nothing that joins these 2 tables together. Is if $table is not assigned a table name then it will use PS_COMMUNICATION as an alternative, but if $table is assigned, it will use that and ignore PS_COMMUNICATION? I couldnt find any explainations of using : in the from. Thanks. Pam From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Tue Oct 1 06:22:37 2002 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 06:58:29 -0400 From: Peter Burton Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Pamela, The [{table_name}:$Table_name] construct directs SQR to use {table_name} at compile time to validate the BEGIN-SELECT paragraph and uses the contents of $Table_name at runtime. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Lantzy [mailto:PLantzy@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:23 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Dynamic SQL - From clause I have seen this in a couple SQRs, but I am not sure what this does. FROM [PS_COMMUNICATION:$table] V $table gets populated with a different table name. There isnt a comma to separate the 2 tables. In the where clause there is nothing that joins these 2 tables together. Is if $table is not assigned a table name then it will use PS_COMMUNICATION as an alternative, but if $table is assigned, it will use that and ignore PS_COMMUNICATION? I couldnt find any explainations of using : in the from. Thanks. Pam From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 07:45:54 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 08:26:18 -0400 From: Pamela Lantzy Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Thanks for the explaination -----Original Message----- From: Peter Burton [mailto:pburton@BRIO.COM] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:58 AM To: SQR-USERS@LIST.IEX.NET Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Pamela, The [{table_name}:$Table_name] construct directs SQR to use {table_name} at compile time to validate the BEGIN-SELECT paragraph and uses the contents of $Table_name at runtime. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Lantzy [mailto:PLantzy@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:23 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Dynamic SQL - From clause I have seen this in a couple SQRs, but I am not sure what this does. FROM [PS_COMMUNICATION:$table] V $table gets populated with a different table name. There isnt a comma to separate the 2 tables. In the where clause there is nothing that joins these 2 tables together. Is if $table is not assigned a table name then it will use PS_COMMUNICATION as an alternative, but if $table is assigned, it will use that and ignore PS_COMMUNICATION? I couldnt find any explainations of using : in the from. Thanks. Pam From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 09:03:31 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 08:33:55 -0500 From: "Knapp, Richard" Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Peter, What version of SQR does this feature appear in? Thanks, Richard Knapp Database Programmer/Analyst Administrative Systems Project University of Missouri System 573-884-3157 knappr@umsystem.edu -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Lantzy [mailto:PLantzy@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 7:26 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Thanks for the explaination -----Original Message----- From: Peter Burton [mailto:pburton@BRIO.COM] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:58 AM To: SQR-USERS@LIST.IEX.NET Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Pamela, The [{table_name}:$Table_name] construct directs SQR to use {table_name} at compile time to validate the BEGIN-SELECT paragraph and uses the contents of $Table_name at runtime. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Lantzy [mailto:PLantzy@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:23 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Dynamic SQL - From clause I have seen this in a couple SQRs, but I am not sure what this does. FROM [PS_COMMUNICATION:$table] V $table gets populated with a different table name. There isnt a comma to separate the 2 tables. In the where clause there is nothing that joins these 2 tables together. Is if $table is not assigned a table name then it will use PS_COMMUNICATION as an alternative, but if $table is assigned, it will use that and ignore PS_COMMUNICATION? I couldnt find any explainations of using : in the from. Thanks. Pam From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 09:17:33 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 06:48:38 -0700 From: Peter Burton Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Richard, I would guess since version 2.x (~1989). The earliest book I have is from SQR 3 and this feature is discussed on Page 51. Page -----Original Message----- From: Knapp, Richard [mailto:KnappR@UMSYSTEM.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:34 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Peter, What version of SQR does this feature appear in? Thanks, Richard Knapp Database Programmer/Analyst Administrative Systems Project University of Missouri System 573-884-3157 knappr@umsystem.edu -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Lantzy [mailto:PLantzy@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 7:26 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Thanks for the explaination -----Original Message----- From: Peter Burton [mailto:pburton@BRIO.COM] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:58 AM To: SQR-USERS@LIST.IEX.NET Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Pamela, The [{table_name}:$Table_name] construct directs SQR to use {table_name} at compile time to validate the BEGIN-SELECT paragraph and uses the contents of $Table_name at runtime. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Lantzy [mailto:PLantzy@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:23 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Dynamic SQL - From clause I have seen this in a couple SQRs, but I am not sure what this does. FROM [PS_COMMUNICATION:$table] V $table gets populated with a different table name. There isnt a comma to separate the 2 tables. In the where clause there is nothing that joins these 2 tables together. Is if $table is not assigned a table name then it will use PS_COMMUNICATION as an alternative, but if $table is assigned, it will use that and ignore PS_COMMUNICATION? I couldnt find any explainations of using : in the from. Thanks. Pam From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 09:26:40 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:05:36 -0500 From: "Knapp, Richard" Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Hmmmm. My documentation is for 4.3 and I can't find mention of this feature. I'm assuming that it would be discussed either in the begin-select, begin-sql or dynamic SQL sections. I'm looking in both the 'Language Reference' and 'User Guide'. I hate to trouble you, but could you say, rather than the page number, what section of what manual the discussion occurs in? Many Thanks. Richard -----Original Message----- From: Peter Burton [mailto:pburton@BRIO.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 8:49 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Richard, I would guess since version 2.x (~1989). The earliest book I have is from SQR 3 and this feature is discussed on Page 51. Page -----Original Message----- From: Knapp, Richard [mailto:KnappR@UMSYSTEM.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:34 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Peter, What version of SQR does this feature appear in? Thanks, Richard Knapp Database Programmer/Analyst Administrative Systems Project University of Missouri System 573-884-3157 knappr@umsystem.edu -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Lantzy [mailto:PLantzy@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 7:26 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Thanks for the explaination -----Original Message----- From: Peter Burton [mailto:pburton@BRIO.COM] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:58 AM To: SQR-USERS@LIST.IEX.NET Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Pamela, The [{table_name}:$Table_name] construct directs SQR to use {table_name} at compile time to validate the BEGIN-SELECT paragraph and uses the contents of $Table_name at runtime. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Lantzy [mailto:PLantzy@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:23 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Dynamic SQL - From clause I have seen this in a couple SQRs, but I am not sure what this does. FROM [PS_COMMUNICATION:$table] V $table gets populated with a different table name. There isnt a comma to separate the 2 tables. In the where clause there is nothing that joins these 2 tables together. Is if $table is not assigned a table name then it will use PS_COMMUNICATION as an alternative, but if $table is assigned, it will use that and ignore PS_COMMUNICATION? I couldnt find any explainations of using : in the from. Thanks. Pam From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 10:02:50 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:28:35 -0400 From: Paul Hoyte Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Richard: Look at page 49 in the reference manual for version 4.3.......bottom half of the page.... Paul Hoyte Sharidionne Inc. (248) 559-6868 Email: phoyte@sharidionne.com -----Original Message----- From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net] On Behalf Of Knapp, Richard Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 10:06 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Hmmmm. My documentation is for 4.3 and I can't find mention of this feature. I'm assuming that it would be discussed either in the begin-select, begin-sql or dynamic SQL sections. I'm looking in both the 'Language Reference' and 'User Guide'. I hate to trouble you, but could you say, rather than the page number, what section of what manual the discussion occurs in? Many Thanks. Richard -----Original Message----- From: Peter Burton [mailto:pburton@BRIO.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 8:49 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Richard, I would guess since version 2.x (~1989). The earliest book I have is from SQR 3 and this feature is discussed on Page 51. Page -----Original Message----- From: Knapp, Richard [mailto:KnappR@UMSYSTEM.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:34 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Peter, What version of SQR does this feature appear in? Thanks, Richard Knapp Database Programmer/Analyst Administrative Systems Project University of Missouri System 573-884-3157 knappr@umsystem.edu -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Lantzy [mailto:PLantzy@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 7:26 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Thanks for the explaination -----Original Message----- From: Peter Burton [mailto:pburton@BRIO.COM] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:58 AM To: SQR-USERS@LIST.IEX.NET Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Pamela, The [{table_name}:$Table_name] construct directs SQR to use {table_name} at compile time to validate the BEGIN-SELECT paragraph and uses the contents of $Table_name at runtime. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Lantzy [mailto:PLantzy@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:23 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Dynamic SQL - From clause I have seen this in a couple SQRs, but I am not sure what this does. FROM [PS_COMMUNICATION:$table] V $table gets populated with a different table name. There isnt a comma to separate the 2 tables. In the where clause there is nothing that joins these 2 tables together. Is if $table is not assigned a table name then it will use PS_COMMUNICATION as an alternative, but if $table is assigned, it will use that and ignore PS_COMMUNICATION? I couldnt find any explainations of using : in the from. Thanks. Pam From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 10:02:52 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:34:29 -0400 From: Peter Burton Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Richard, You love to rouble me ... It appears twix Version 3 manuals and Version 4 (and beyond) the explanation of the construct FROM [{table_name} : $table_name] was lost. As I said it was on page 51 located in Chapter 2 "Working with SQR" in the "SQR3 Workbench, SQR User's Guide, Version 3.0" book. I can fax you a copy of the page if you like. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Knapp, Richard [mailto:KnappR@UMSYSTEM.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 10:06 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Hmmmm. My documentation is for 4.3 and I can't find mention of this feature. I'm assuming that it would be discussed either in the begin-select, begin-sql or dynamic SQL sections. I'm looking in both the 'Language Reference' and 'User Guide'. I hate to trouble you, but could you say, rather than the page number, what section of what manual the discussion occurs in? Many Thanks. Richard -----Original Message----- From: Peter Burton [mailto:pburton@BRIO.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 8:49 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Richard, I would guess since version 2.x (~1989). The earliest book I have is from SQR 3 and this feature is discussed on Page 51. Page -----Original Message----- From: Knapp, Richard [mailto:KnappR@UMSYSTEM.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:34 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Peter, What version of SQR does this feature appear in? Thanks, Richard Knapp Database Programmer/Analyst Administrative Systems Project University of Missouri System 573-884-3157 knappr@umsystem.edu -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Lantzy [mailto:PLantzy@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 7:26 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Thanks for the explaination -----Original Message----- From: Peter Burton [mailto:pburton@BRIO.COM] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:58 AM To: SQR-USERS@LIST.IEX.NET Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Pamela, The [{table_name}:$Table_name] construct directs SQR to use {table_name} at compile time to validate the BEGIN-SELECT paragraph and uses the contents of $Table_name at runtime. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Lantzy [mailto:PLantzy@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:23 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Dynamic SQL - From clause I have seen this in a couple SQRs, but I am not sure what this does. FROM [PS_COMMUNICATION:$table] V $table gets populated with a different table name. There isnt a comma to separate the 2 tables. In the where clause there is nothing that joins these 2 tables together. Is if $table is not assigned a table name then it will use PS_COMMUNICATION as an alternative, but if $table is assigned, it will use that and ignore PS_COMMUNICATION? I couldnt find any explainations of using : in the from. Thanks. Pam From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 10:17:19 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:43:23 -0400 From: Peter Burton Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Paul, That form is for a fully dynamic table reference. That form forces SQR to suspend validation of the BEGIN-SELECT until runtime and therefore cannot use the database to provide the class of the select columns during the scan phase. Therefore, you need to specify the class (i.e. number, date) of columns which are not defined as characters. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Paul Hoyte [mailto:phoyte@SHARIDIONNE.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 10:29 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Richard: Look at page 49 in the reference manual for version 4.3.......bottom half of the page.... Paul Hoyte Sharidionne Inc. (248) 559-6868 Email: phoyte@sharidionne.com -----Original Message----- From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net] On Behalf Of Knapp, Richard Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 10:06 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Hmmmm. My documentation is for 4.3 and I can't find mention of this feature. I'm assuming that it would be discussed either in the begin-select, begin-sql or dynamic SQL sections. I'm looking in both the 'Language Reference' and 'User Guide'. I hate to trouble you, but could you say, rather than the page number, what section of what manual the discussion occurs in? Many Thanks. Richard -----Original Message----- From: Peter Burton [mailto:pburton@BRIO.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 8:49 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Richard, I would guess since version 2.x (~1989). The earliest book I have is from SQR 3 and this feature is discussed on Page 51. Page -----Original Message----- From: Knapp, Richard [mailto:KnappR@UMSYSTEM.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:34 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Peter, What version of SQR does this feature appear in? Thanks, Richard Knapp Database Programmer/Analyst Administrative Systems Project University of Missouri System 573-884-3157 knappr@umsystem.edu -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Lantzy [mailto:PLantzy@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 7:26 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Thanks for the explaination -----Original Message----- From: Peter Burton [mailto:pburton@BRIO.COM] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:58 AM To: SQR-USERS@LIST.IEX.NET Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Pamela, The [{table_name}:$Table_name] construct directs SQR to use {table_name} at compile time to validate the BEGIN-SELECT paragraph and uses the contents of $Table_name at runtime. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Lantzy [mailto:PLantzy@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:23 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Dynamic SQL - From clause I have seen this in a couple SQRs, but I am not sure what this does. FROM [PS_COMMUNICATION:$table] V $table gets populated with a different table name. There isnt a comma to separate the 2 tables. In the where clause there is nothing that joins these 2 tables together. Is if $table is not assigned a table name then it will use PS_COMMUNICATION as an alternative, but if $table is assigned, it will use that and ignore PS_COMMUNICATION? I couldnt find any explainations of using : in the from. Thanks. Pam From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 14:47:04 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:24:23 -0500 From: "Knapp, Richard" Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Peter, No need. Thanks. I feared I might be losing my mind (again) when I couldn't find mention of it. Richard -----Original Message----- From: Peter Burton [mailto:pburton@BRIO.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:34 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Richard, You love to rouble me ... It appears twix Version 3 manuals and Version 4 (and beyond) the explanation of the construct FROM [{table_name} : $table_name] was lost. As I said it was on page 51 located in Chapter 2 "Working with SQR" in the "SQR3 Workbench, SQR User's Guide, Version 3.0" book. I can fax you a copy of the page if you like. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Knapp, Richard [mailto:KnappR@UMSYSTEM.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 10:06 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Hmmmm. My documentation is for 4.3 and I can't find mention of this feature. I'm assuming that it would be discussed either in the begin-select, begin-sql or dynamic SQL sections. I'm looking in both the 'Language Reference' and 'User Guide'. I hate to trouble you, but could you say, rather than the page number, what section of what manual the discussion occurs in? Many Thanks. Richard -----Original Message----- From: Peter Burton [mailto:pburton@BRIO.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 8:49 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Richard, I would guess since version 2.x (~1989). The earliest book I have is from SQR 3 and this feature is discussed on Page 51. Page -----Original Message----- From: Knapp, Richard [mailto:KnappR@UMSYSTEM.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:34 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Peter, What version of SQR does this feature appear in? Thanks, Richard Knapp Database Programmer/Analyst Administrative Systems Project University of Missouri System 573-884-3157 knappr@umsystem.edu -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Lantzy [mailto:PLantzy@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 7:26 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Thanks for the explaination -----Original Message----- From: Peter Burton [mailto:pburton@BRIO.COM] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:58 AM To: SQR-USERS@LIST.IEX.NET Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Pamela, The [{table_name}:$Table_name] construct directs SQR to use {table_name} at compile time to validate the BEGIN-SELECT paragraph and uses the contents of $Table_name at runtime. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Lantzy [mailto:PLantzy@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:23 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Dynamic SQL - From clause I have seen this in a couple SQRs, but I am not sure what this does. FROM [PS_COMMUNICATION:$table] V $table gets populated with a different table name. There isnt a comma to separate the 2 tables. In the where clause there is nothing that joins these 2 tables together. Is if $table is not assigned a table name then it will use PS_COMMUNICATION as an alternative, but if $table is assigned, it will use that and ignore PS_COMMUNICATION? I couldnt find any explainations of using : in the from. Thanks. Pam From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 14:52:32 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:27:23 -0500 From: "Knapp, Richard" Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Hi Paul, Is the reference you mention an example for the preceding description of begin-select? If so, we are on the same page (as they say) and I don't see the construct. Could be blinder that usual. Richard -----Original Message----- From: Paul Hoyte [mailto:phoyte@SHARIDIONNE.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:29 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Richard: Look at page 49 in the reference manual for version 4.3.......bottom half of the page.... Paul Hoyte Sharidionne Inc. (248) 559-6868 Email: phoyte@sharidionne.com -----Original Message----- From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net] On Behalf Of Knapp, Richard Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 10:06 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Hmmmm. My documentation is for 4.3 and I can't find mention of this feature. I'm assuming that it would be discussed either in the begin-select, begin-sql or dynamic SQL sections. I'm looking in both the 'Language Reference' and 'User Guide'. I hate to trouble you, but could you say, rather than the page number, what section of what manual the discussion occurs in? Many Thanks. Richard -----Original Message----- From: Peter Burton [mailto:pburton@BRIO.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 8:49 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Richard, I would guess since version 2.x (~1989). The earliest book I have is from SQR 3 and this feature is discussed on Page 51. Page -----Original Message----- From: Knapp, Richard [mailto:KnappR@UMSYSTEM.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:34 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Peter, What version of SQR does this feature appear in? Thanks, Richard Knapp Database Programmer/Analyst Administrative Systems Project University of Missouri System 573-884-3157 knappr@umsystem.edu -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Lantzy [mailto:PLantzy@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 7:26 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Thanks for the explaination -----Original Message----- From: Peter Burton [mailto:pburton@BRIO.COM] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:58 AM To: SQR-USERS@LIST.IEX.NET Subject: Re: Dynamic SQL - From clause Pamela, The [{table_name}:$Table_name] construct directs SQR to use {table_name} at compile time to validate the BEGIN-SELECT paragraph and uses the contents of $Table_name at runtime. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Lantzy [mailto:PLantzy@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:23 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Dynamic SQL - From clause I have seen this in a couple SQRs, but I am not sure what this does. FROM [PS_COMMUNICATION:$table] V $table gets populated with a different table name. There isnt a comma to separate the 2 tables. In the where clause there is nothing that joins these 2 tables together. Is if $table is not assigned a table name then it will use PS_COMMUNICATION as an alternative, but if $table is assigned, it will use that and ignore PS_COMMUNICATION? I couldnt find any explainations of using : in the from. Thanks. Pam From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Tue Oct 1 05:46:31 2002 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 06:27:37 -0400 From: Pamela Lantzy Subject: print-image - use of variables Is it possible to use variables in PRINT-IMAGE for source? I didnt want to hardcode the path of the image. I tried using a variable and using a #define but neither worked. print-image (75,80) type = hpgl-file source = 'exact path to image file' image-size = (30,5) What have others done? We have different directory structures for each environment. Thanks, Pam From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Tue Oct 1 06:27:03 2002 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 04:01:38 -0700 From: Peter Burton Subject: Re: print-image - use of variables Pamela, Yes ... If you can use a string literal you should be able to use a string variable with the PRINT-IMAGE command. What error/effect are you seeing when using a string variable versus a string literal? What version of SQR? What platform and OS version? Peter -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Lantzy [mailto:PLantzy@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:28 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: print-image - use of variables Is it possible to use variables in PRINT-IMAGE for source? I didnt want to hardcode the path of the image. I tried using a variable and using a #define but neither worked. print-image (75,80) type = hpgl-file source = 'exact path to image file' image-size = (30,5) What have others done? We have different directory structures for each environment. Thanks, Pam From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Tue Oct 1 05:59:07 2002 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 12:33:53 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Tha=EE?= Le Tat Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9f=2E_=3A_pb_with_datetostr?= This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------------7NhE3WuB9OnU6N9D2A0R5Y7 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I've found the problem. My "sqr.ini" file was wrong. DATE-SEPARATOR =3D '.' TIME-SEPARATOR =3D '.' Regards, Thai Tha=EE Le Tat 01/10/2002 11:08 Pour : SQR-USERS@list.iex.net cc : Objet : pb with datetostr In a local procedure, I have the following : #define FMT_LOGDATE 'YYYY/MM/DD HH:MI:SS' let $log =3D datetostr(datenow(),{FMT_LOGDATE}) display $log My output is : 2002.10.01 11.06.35 Why ? (I want to have something like 2002/10/01 11:06:35). 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France. ------------7NhE3WuB9OnU6N9D2A0R5Y7-- From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Tue Oct 1 12:43:22 2002 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 13:22:20 -0400 From: Vipul Patel Subject: Re: Changing Fonts I think in connection with alter-printer also use declare-printer and set printer = hp then only u will be able to do it -----Original Message----- From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language [mailto:SQR-USERS@LIST.IEX.NET]On Behalf Of Harris, Sam Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 3:49 PM To: SQR-USERS@LIST.IEX.NET Subject: Re: Changing Fonts Yes. I have tried the alter-printer command, but it causes not change in my printout file. -----Original Message----- From: Vallabhu, Bindu [mailto:Bindu.Vallabhu@STAPLES.COM] Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 3:13 PM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Changing Fonts Have you tried using the 'Alter-printer command" alter-printer font=5 point-size=12 !Times Roman -----Original Message----- From: Harris, Sam [mailto:SVH@CDRH.FDA.GOV] Sent: 09/23/2002 2:24 PM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Changing Fonts My Client has requested that batch of reports that have print in Courier fonts be changed to print in Times New Roman 12. Can this be done in SQR? From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Tue Oct 1 15:01:47 2002 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 12:37:26 -0700 From: Allen Cunningham Subject: Re: Purpose of this list Chris - I certainly don't appreciate being lectured and scolded by you, and your patronizing little suggestion to take a PeopleTools class. If your having a bad day, find a better way to deal with it than venting on this board. This was posted late Fri afternoon, it certainly didn't generate a lot of 'noise' that you say you are so worried about. If you don't like a posting, ignore it. ac -----Original Message----- From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Chris Bennett Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 4:15 PM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Purpose of this list Ken, That's an interesting question. Just for clarification let me point out that my primary concern was the potential trouble I foresaw Allen getting into if he tries to accomplish his goals by getting "step by step" instructions from this list. I thought it was a very valid and hopefully helpful answer to suggest that a class might be in his best interest. However, it is true that I was also concerned about the signal/noise ratio of this list, and I took the opportunity to also suggest that perhaps not everyone on the list would like to read a question and answer about basic PeopleTools (please note, however, that even after I said his post was off-topic and that he would be better served by taking a class, that I still answered the question). Anyway, to attempt to answer your question... According the the mailing list "hints and guidelines" (http://www.sqrug.org/sqr-users/sqr-users-hints.html), the only sections that directly refer to "etiquette" are the following: 1) "keep in mind that over 500 people will receive your message, and that it will appear in the list archives. Try to keep your messages on-topic and relatively short. Consider sending your message directly to particular people if it won't interest many of the list's subscribers." 2) "Please do not post job announcements on the sqr-users list, but use the sqr-jobs list instead. (See Related Mailing Lists for more information on this list.) A large number of sqr-users subscribers do not want to receive job announcements (for various reasons) and such posts tend to cause a lot of disruption of the discussion on the list." One could also read section 4.2 "Posting a Message" as strongly implying that messages posted here should relate specifically to SQR. Aside from this, I don't know what the "position" here is any more than you do (and as I'll explain below, to some extent it really doesn't matter), but I'll offer up my opinions. I'll start with two assumptions. These may be debatable, but I'll throw them out as a starting point: 1) Most people on this list are (more or less) well paid professionals 2) If there is too much noise the "gurus" that monitor this list will lose interest and leave. Given these assumptions, I have the following opinions: I don't want to be used as someone else's gopher for basic reference materials, and I suspect that other people on this list would rather not be used for that purpose either. While I enjoy helping someone who truly has a difficult or unusual problem, doing other people's work for them goes beyond the call of duty. Time is, indeed, of the essence for many of us, as you say. But why would one person's time be more important than mine? I also rely on this list as a resource to help out with any big problems I might run into, so I'm glad there are some very skilled and knowledgeable people that monitor this list. I would be really disappointed to see them leave because this list degenerated into some sort of off-topic "how to program" tutorial group. This list is not moderated, so it is neither democratic (moderator chosen by vote) nor totalitarian (moderator is the list admin, Ray Ontko). Anarchy seems more accurate. As such, anyone can really post whatever they want, and we each make our own decision as to whether it is worth sticking around based on our own needs. We can all decide as a group that job posting are taboo, but we know full well that some people will still post them anyway. So all I can say is this: I would prefer that we stay generally on topic. And I would prefer that we not be deluged with trivial questions that are asked just to save someone else's time at the expense of my time. But these are my preferences based on my needs. If you or anyone else feels that it would be a good idea to encourage people to post off-topic or trivial questions, just consider what long-term utility you will be getting from this list. There's probably no point to debating this. Its not as if any decision would be binding, and this really could just be considered more "noise" on the list anyway. Each person can make up their own mind and do as they wish. Personally, I'm not going to whine about every post that goes off-topic or asks something really trivial, nor will I send nasty notes to people who post jobs here. Its not worth it and doesn't help in any case. But now and then I think its worthwhile to point out that this list is only as useful as we make it. Chris On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Ken Boettger wrote: > Chris, > > I am not certain I agree with this precept. It is a controversial one and a common one, I know. But I wonder if it is an appropriate view. I quess I am a proponent of the "there is no stupid or silly questions" and that forums are a place of learning. > > In addition, I have been in IT for 15 years and work with many languages and tools. It is very hard to keep everything straight. Many times I will go to a list to get an answer to a simple issue that I cannot recall the answer too. Yes, the answer is in the FAQ or in the manuals. And I think they should be encouraged, but not enforced. The reason being that time is of the essence for many of us. On many occassions (both in the public and private sector), I will post a question and then proceed with something else until a response comes back. From a statistical point of view, it might take me 5 or 10 minutes to find and read through a FAQ or manual before I find an anwser (if I can even remember where the manual is - or who borrowed it last). Using a forum or list, I maybe type a concise question for 30 seconds, then spend another minute reading the responses - the point here being that a five fold increase in efficiency is significant from a temporal, financial and pro! fe! > ssional point of view. > > My question is, what is the position here? I believe in democracy and will go either way. But I have on many occasions posted simple questions to this list. If such questions are not welcome, I will stop using this forum in that regard. And maybe we should consider an additional forum that subscribes to a more open view including novice type questions? There is a definitely a need for such a forum. > > -Ken > > Ken Boettger > boettgek@cwu.edu > http://www.cwu.edu/~boettgek > x2944 From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Tue Oct 1 15:40:11 2002 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:02:39 -0500 From: "Aaron M. Reiff" Subject: Re: Purpose of this list Perhaps we should all move on. All points seems to have been expressed, aired and otherwise worn-out. Does anyone have anything productive and non-threatening to say regarding this issue before we return to the business at hand? -----Original Message----- From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Allen Cunningham Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:37 PM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Purpose of this list Chris - I certainly don't appreciate being lectured and scolded by you, and your patronizing little suggestion to take a PeopleTools class. If your having a bad day, find a better way to deal with it than venting on this board. This was posted late Fri afternoon, it certainly didn't generate a lot of 'noise' that you say you are so worried about. If you don't like a posting, ignore it. ac -----Original Message----- From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Chris Bennett Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 4:15 PM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Purpose of this list Ken, That's an interesting question. Just for clarification let me point out that my primary concern was the potential trouble I foresaw Allen getting into if he tries to accomplish his goals by getting "step by step" instructions from this list. I thought it was a very valid and hopefully helpful answer to suggest that a class might be in his best interest. However, it is true that I was also concerned about the signal/noise ratio of this list, and I took the opportunity to also suggest that perhaps not everyone on the list would like to read a question and answer about basic PeopleTools (please note, however, that even after I said his post was off-topic and that he would be better served by taking a class, that I still answered the question). Anyway, to attempt to answer your question... According the the mailing list "hints and guidelines" (http://www.sqrug.org/sqr-users/sqr-users-hints.html), the only sections that directly refer to "etiquette" are the following: 1) "keep in mind that over 500 people will receive your message, and that it will appear in the list archives. Try to keep your messages on-topic and relatively short. Consider sending your message directly to particular people if it won't interest many of the list's subscribers." 2) "Please do not post job announcements on the sqr-users list, but use the sqr-jobs list instead. (See Related Mailing Lists for more information on this list.) A large number of sqr-users subscribers do not want to receive job announcements (for various reasons) and such posts tend to cause a lot of disruption of the discussion on the list." One could also read section 4.2 "Posting a Message" as strongly implying that messages posted here should relate specifically to SQR. Aside from this, I don't know what the "position" here is any more than you do (and as I'll explain below, to some extent it really doesn't matter), but I'll offer up my opinions. I'll start with two assumptions. These may be debatable, but I'll throw them out as a starting point: 1) Most people on this list are (more or less) well paid professionals 2) If there is too much noise the "gurus" that monitor this list will lose interest and leave. Given these assumptions, I have the following opinions: I don't want to be used as someone else's gopher for basic reference materials, and I suspect that other people on this list would rather not be used for that purpose either. While I enjoy helping someone who truly has a difficult or unusual problem, doing other people's work for them goes beyond the call of duty. Time is, indeed, of the essence for many of us, as you say. But why would one person's time be more important than mine? I also rely on this list as a resource to help out with any big problems I might run into, so I'm glad there are some very skilled and knowledgeable people that monitor this list. I would be really disappointed to see them leave because this list degenerated into some sort of off-topic "how to program" tutorial group. This list is not moderated, so it is neither democratic (moderator chosen by vote) nor totalitarian (moderator is the list admin, Ray Ontko). Anarchy seems more accurate. As such, anyone can really post whatever they want, and we each make our own decision as to whether it is worth sticking around based on our own needs. We can all decide as a group that job posting are taboo, but we know full well that some people will still post them anyway. So all I can say is this: I would prefer that we stay generally on topic. And I would prefer that we not be deluged with trivial questions that are asked just to save someone else's time at the expense of my time. But these are my preferences based on my needs. If you or anyone else feels that it would be a good idea to encourage people to post off-topic or trivial questions, just consider what long-term utility you will be getting from this list. There's probably no point to debating this. Its not as if any decision would be binding, and this really could just be considered more "noise" on the list anyway. Each person can make up their own mind and do as they wish. Personally, I'm not going to whine about every post that goes off-topic or asks something really trivial, nor will I send nasty notes to people who post jobs here. Its not worth it and doesn't help in any case. But now and then I think its worthwhile to point out that this list is only as useful as we make it. Chris On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Ken Boettger wrote: > Chris, > > I am not certain I agree with this precept. It is a controversial one and a common one, I know. But I wonder if it is an appropriate view. I quess I am a proponent of the "there is no stupid or silly questions" and that forums are a place of learning. > > In addition, I have been in IT for 15 years and work with many languages and tools. It is very hard to keep everything straight. Many times I will go to a list to get an answer to a simple issue that I cannot recall the answer too. Yes, the answer is in the FAQ or in the manuals. And I think they should be encouraged, but not enforced. The reason being that time is of the essence for many of us. On many occassions (both in the public and private sector), I will post a question and then proceed with something else until a response comes back. From a statistical point of view, it might take me 5 or 10 minutes to find and read through a FAQ or manual before I find an anwser (if I can even remember where the manual is - or who borrowed it last). Using a forum or list, I maybe type a concise question for 30 seconds, then spend another minute reading the responses - the point here being that a five fold increase in efficiency is significant from a temporal, financial and pro! fe! > ssional point of view. > > My question is, what is the position here? I believe in democracy and will go either way. But I have on many occasions posted simple questions to this list. If such questions are not welcome, I will stop using this forum in that regard. And maybe we should consider an additional forum that subscribes to a more open view including novice type questions? There is a definitely a need for such a forum. > > -Ken > > Ken Boettger > boettgek@cwu.edu > http://www.cwu.edu/~boettgek > x2944 From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Tue Oct 1 17:53:57 2002 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:27:05 -0700 From: David Thorburn Subject: Re: Purpose of this list I agree, take a class and become qualified airhead! Otherwise you are just a leech here! Nuff Said D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron M. Reiff" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 1:02 PM Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > Perhaps we should all move on. All points seems to have been expressed, aired and otherwise worn-out. > > Does anyone have anything productive and non-threatening to say regarding this issue before we return to the business at hand? > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Allen Cunningham > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:37 PM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > Chris - I certainly don't appreciate being lectured and scolded by you, and > your patronizing little suggestion to take a PeopleTools class. If your > having a bad day, find a better way to deal with it than venting on this > board. This was posted late Fri afternoon, it certainly didn't generate a > lot of 'noise' that you say you are so worried about. If you don't like a > posting, ignore it. > > ac > > -----Original Message----- > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Chris Bennett > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 4:15 PM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > Ken, > > That's an interesting question. Just for clarification let me point out > that my primary concern was the potential trouble I foresaw Allen getting > into if he tries to accomplish his goals by getting "step by step" > instructions from this list. I thought it was a very valid and hopefully > helpful answer to suggest that a class might be in his best interest. > > However, it is true that I was also concerned about the signal/noise ratio > of this list, and I took the opportunity to also suggest that perhaps not > everyone on the list would like to read a question and answer about basic > PeopleTools (please note, however, that even after I said his post was > off-topic and that he would be better served by taking a class, that I > still answered the question). > > Anyway, to attempt to answer your question... > > According the the mailing list "hints and guidelines" > (http://www.sqrug.org/sqr-users/sqr-users-hints.html), the only sections > that directly refer to "etiquette" are the following: > > 1) "keep in mind that over 500 people will receive your message, and that > it will appear in the list archives. Try to keep your messages on-topic > and relatively short. Consider sending your message directly to particular > people if it won't interest many of the list's subscribers." > > 2) "Please do not post job announcements on the sqr-users list, but use > the sqr-jobs list instead. (See Related Mailing Lists for more information > on this list.) A large number of sqr-users subscribers do not want to > receive job announcements (for various reasons) and such posts tend to > cause a lot of disruption of the discussion on the list." > > One could also read section 4.2 "Posting a Message" as strongly implying > that messages posted here should relate specifically to SQR. > > Aside from this, I don't know what the "position" here is any more than > you do (and as I'll explain below, to some extent it really doesn't > matter), but I'll offer up my opinions. > > I'll start with two assumptions. These may be debatable, but I'll throw > them out as a starting point: > > 1) Most people on this list are (more or less) well paid professionals > > 2) If there is too much noise the "gurus" that monitor this list will lose > interest and leave. > > Given these assumptions, I have the following opinions: > > I don't want to be used as someone else's gopher for basic reference > materials, and I suspect that other people on this list would rather not > be used for that purpose either. While I enjoy helping someone who truly > has a difficult or unusual problem, doing other people's work for them > goes beyond the call of duty. Time is, indeed, of the essence for many of > us, as you say. But why would one person's time be more important than > mine? > > I also rely on this list as a resource to help out with any big problems I > might run into, so I'm glad there are some very skilled and knowledgeable > people that monitor this list. I would be really disappointed to see them > leave because this list degenerated into some sort of off-topic "how to > program" tutorial group. > > This list is not moderated, so it is neither democratic (moderator chosen > by vote) nor totalitarian (moderator is the list admin, Ray Ontko). > Anarchy seems more accurate. As such, anyone can really post whatever > they want, and we each make our own decision as to whether it is worth > sticking around based on our own needs. We can all decide as a group that > job posting are taboo, but we know full well that some people will still > post them anyway. > > So all I can say is this: I would prefer that we stay generally on topic. > And I would prefer that we not be deluged with trivial questions that are > asked just to save someone else's time at the expense of my time. But > these are my preferences based on my needs. If you or anyone else feels > that it would be a good idea to encourage people to post off-topic or > trivial questions, just consider what long-term utility you will be > getting from this list. > > There's probably no point to debating this. Its not as if any decision > would be binding, and this really could just be considered more "noise" > on the list anyway. Each person can make up their own mind and do as they > wish. Personally, I'm not going to whine about every post that goes > off-topic or asks something really trivial, nor will I send nasty notes to > people who post jobs here. Its not worth it and doesn't help in any case. > But now and then I think its worthwhile to point out that this list is > only as useful as we make it. > > Chris > > On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Ken Boettger wrote: > > > Chris, > > > > I am not certain I agree with this precept. It is a controversial one and > a common one, I know. But I wonder if it is an appropriate view. I quess I > am a proponent of the "there is no stupid or silly questions" and that > forums are a place of learning. > > > > In addition, I have been in IT for 15 years and work with many languages > and tools. It is very hard to keep everything straight. Many times I will > go to a list to get an answer to a simple issue that I cannot recall the > answer too. Yes, the answer is in the FAQ or in the manuals. And I think > they should be encouraged, but not enforced. The reason being that time is > of the essence for many of us. On many occassions (both in the public and > private sector), I will post a question and then proceed with something else > until a response comes back. From a statistical point of view, it might > take me 5 or 10 minutes to find and read through a FAQ or manual before I > find an anwser (if I can even remember where the manual is - or who borrowed > it last). Using a forum or list, I maybe type a concise question for 30 > seconds, then spend another minute reading the responses - the point here > being that a five fold increase in efficiency is significant from a > temporal, financial and pro! > fe! > > ssional point of view. > > > > My question is, what is the position here? I believe in democracy and > will go either way. But I have on many occasions posted simple questions to > this list. If such questions are not welcome, I will stop using this forum > in that regard. And maybe we should consider an additional forum that > subscribes to a more open view including novice type questions? There is a > definitely a need for such a forum. > > > > -Ken > > > > Ken Boettger > > boettgek@cwu.edu > > http://www.cwu.edu/~boettgek > > x2944 > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Tue Oct 1 15:56:00 2002 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 16:22:28 -0400 From: "Christenson, Amy" Subject: Re: Purpose of this list I do; If you need help with PeopleSoft specific questions in the future, please join us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peoplesoft-fans . I belong to both groups but move back and forth depending on my question. That way you can avoid at least a portion of this in the future. Amy -----Original Message----- From: Aaron M. Reiff [mailto:aaron.reiff@MAIL.RGSTR.WISC.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 4:03 PM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Purpose of this list Perhaps we should all move on. All points seems to have been expressed, aired and otherwise worn-out. Does anyone have anything productive and non-threatening to say regarding this issue before we return to the business at hand? -----Original Message----- From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Allen Cunningham Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:37 PM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Purpose of this list Chris - I certainly don't appreciate being lectured and scolded by you, and your patronizing little suggestion to take a PeopleTools class. If your having a bad day, find a better way to deal with it than venting on this board. This was posted late Fri afternoon, it certainly didn't generate a lot of 'noise' that you say you are so worried about. If you don't like a posting, ignore it. ac -----Original Message----- From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Chris Bennett Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 4:15 PM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Purpose of this list Ken, That's an interesting question. Just for clarification let me point out that my primary concern was the potential trouble I foresaw Allen getting into if he tries to accomplish his goals by getting "step by step" instructions from this list. I thought it was a very valid and hopefully helpful answer to suggest that a class might be in his best interest. However, it is true that I was also concerned about the signal/noise ratio of this list, and I took the opportunity to also suggest that perhaps not everyone on the list would like to read a question and answer about basic PeopleTools (please note, however, that even after I said his post was off-topic and that he would be better served by taking a class, that I still answered the question). Anyway, to attempt to answer your question... According the the mailing list "hints and guidelines" (http://www.sqrug.org/sqr-users/sqr-users-hints.html), the only sections that directly refer to "etiquette" are the following: 1) "keep in mind that over 500 people will receive your message, and that it will appear in the list archives. Try to keep your messages on-topic and relatively short. Consider sending your message directly to particular people if it won't interest many of the list's subscribers." 2) "Please do not post job announcements on the sqr-users list, but use the sqr-jobs list instead. (See Related Mailing Lists for more information on this list.) A large number of sqr-users subscribers do not want to receive job announcements (for various reasons) and such posts tend to cause a lot of disruption of the discussion on the list." One could also read section 4.2 "Posting a Message" as strongly implying that messages posted here should relate specifically to SQR. Aside from this, I don't know what the "position" here is any more than you do (and as I'll explain below, to some extent it really doesn't matter), but I'll offer up my opinions. I'll start with two assumptions. These may be debatable, but I'll throw them out as a starting point: 1) Most people on this list are (more or less) well paid professionals 2) If there is too much noise the "gurus" that monitor this list will lose interest and leave. Given these assumptions, I have the following opinions: I don't want to be used as someone else's gopher for basic reference materials, and I suspect that other people on this list would rather not be used for that purpose either. While I enjoy helping someone who truly has a difficult or unusual problem, doing other people's work for them goes beyond the call of duty. Time is, indeed, of the essence for many of us, as you say. But why would one person's time be more important than mine? I also rely on this list as a resource to help out with any big problems I might run into, so I'm glad there are some very skilled and knowledgeable people that monitor this list. I would be really disappointed to see them leave because this list degenerated into some sort of off-topic "how to program" tutorial group. This list is not moderated, so it is neither democratic (moderator chosen by vote) nor totalitarian (moderator is the list admin, Ray Ontko). Anarchy seems more accurate. As such, anyone can really post whatever they want, and we each make our own decision as to whether it is worth sticking around based on our own needs. We can all decide as a group that job posting are taboo, but we know full well that some people will still post them anyway. So all I can say is this: I would prefer that we stay generally on topic. And I would prefer that we not be deluged with trivial questions that are asked just to save someone else's time at the expense of my time. But these are my preferences based on my needs. If you or anyone else feels that it would be a good idea to encourage people to post off-topic or trivial questions, just consider what long-term utility you will be getting from this list. There's probably no point to debating this. Its not as if any decision would be binding, and this really could just be considered more "noise" on the list anyway. Each person can make up their own mind and do as they wish. Personally, I'm not going to whine about every post that goes off-topic or asks something really trivial, nor will I send nasty notes to people who post jobs here. Its not worth it and doesn't help in any case. But now and then I think its worthwhile to point out that this list is only as useful as we make it. Chris On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Ken Boettger wrote: > Chris, > > I am not certain I agree with this precept. It is a controversial one and a common one, I know. But I wonder if it is an appropriate view. I quess I am a proponent of the "there is no stupid or silly questions" and that forums are a place of learning. > > In addition, I have been in IT for 15 years and work with many languages and tools. It is very hard to keep everything straight. Many times I will go to a list to get an answer to a simple issue that I cannot recall the answer too. Yes, the answer is in the FAQ or in the manuals. And I think they should be encouraged, but not enforced. The reason being that time is of the essence for many of us. On many occassions (both in the public and private sector), I will post a question and then proceed with something else until a response comes back. From a statistical point of view, it might take me 5 or 10 minutes to find and read through a FAQ or manual before I find an anwser (if I can even remember where the manual is - or who borrowed it last). Using a forum or list, I maybe type a concise question for 30 seconds, then spend another minute reading the responses - the point here being that a five fold increase in efficiency is significant from a temporal, financial and pro! fe! > ssional point of view. > > My question is, what is the position here? I believe in democracy and will go either way. But I have on many occasions posted simple questions to this list. If such questions are not welcome, I will stop using this forum in that regard. And maybe we should consider an additional forum that subscribes to a more open view including novice type questions? There is a definitely a need for such a forum. > > -Ken > > Ken Boettger > boettgek@cwu.edu > http://www.cwu.edu/~boettgek > x2944 From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Tue Oct 1 17:54:53 2002 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:25:25 -0700 From: David Thorburn Subject: Re: Purpose of this list perfect example of an unfocused liberal PC wishy washy response to a very serious situation. Why don't you run for President? D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christenson, Amy" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 1:22 PM Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > I do; If you need help with PeopleSoft specific questions in the future, > please join us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peoplesoft-fans . I belong > to both groups but move back and forth depending on my question. That way > you can avoid at least a portion of this in the future. > > Amy > > -----Original Message----- > From: Aaron M. Reiff [mailto:aaron.reiff@MAIL.RGSTR.WISC.EDU] > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 4:03 PM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > Perhaps we should all move on. All points seems to have been expressed, > aired and otherwise worn-out. > > Does anyone have anything productive and non-threatening to say regarding > this issue before we return to the business at hand? > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Allen Cunningham > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:37 PM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > Chris - I certainly don't appreciate being lectured and scolded by you, and > your patronizing little suggestion to take a PeopleTools class. If your > having a bad day, find a better way to deal with it than venting on this > board. This was posted late Fri afternoon, it certainly didn't generate a > lot of 'noise' that you say you are so worried about. If you don't like a > posting, ignore it. > > ac > > -----Original Message----- > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Chris Bennett > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 4:15 PM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > Ken, > > That's an interesting question. Just for clarification let me point out > that my primary concern was the potential trouble I foresaw Allen getting > into if he tries to accomplish his goals by getting "step by step" > instructions from this list. I thought it was a very valid and hopefully > helpful answer to suggest that a class might be in his best interest. > > However, it is true that I was also concerned about the signal/noise ratio > of this list, and I took the opportunity to also suggest that perhaps not > everyone on the list would like to read a question and answer about basic > PeopleTools (please note, however, that even after I said his post was > off-topic and that he would be better served by taking a class, that I > still answered the question). > > Anyway, to attempt to answer your question... > > According the the mailing list "hints and guidelines" > (http://www.sqrug.org/sqr-users/sqr-users-hints.html), the only sections > that directly refer to "etiquette" are the following: > > 1) "keep in mind that over 500 people will receive your message, and that > it will appear in the list archives. Try to keep your messages on-topic > and relatively short. Consider sending your message directly to particular > people if it won't interest many of the list's subscribers." > > 2) "Please do not post job announcements on the sqr-users list, but use > the sqr-jobs list instead. (See Related Mailing Lists for more information > on this list.) A large number of sqr-users subscribers do not want to > receive job announcements (for various reasons) and such posts tend to > cause a lot of disruption of the discussion on the list." > > One could also read section 4.2 "Posting a Message" as strongly implying > that messages posted here should relate specifically to SQR. > > Aside from this, I don't know what the "position" here is any more than > you do (and as I'll explain below, to some extent it really doesn't > matter), but I'll offer up my opinions. > > I'll start with two assumptions. These may be debatable, but I'll throw > them out as a starting point: > > 1) Most people on this list are (more or less) well paid professionals > > 2) If there is too much noise the "gurus" that monitor this list will lose > interest and leave. > > Given these assumptions, I have the following opinions: > > I don't want to be used as someone else's gopher for basic reference > materials, and I suspect that other people on this list would rather not > be used for that purpose either. While I enjoy helping someone who truly > has a difficult or unusual problem, doing other people's work for them > goes beyond the call of duty. Time is, indeed, of the essence for many of > us, as you say. But why would one person's time be more important than > mine? > > I also rely on this list as a resource to help out with any big problems I > might run into, so I'm glad there are some very skilled and knowledgeable > people that monitor this list. I would be really disappointed to see them > leave because this list degenerated into some sort of off-topic "how to > program" tutorial group. > > This list is not moderated, so it is neither democratic (moderator chosen > by vote) nor totalitarian (moderator is the list admin, Ray Ontko). > Anarchy seems more accurate. As such, anyone can really post whatever > they want, and we each make our own decision as to whether it is worth > sticking around based on our own needs. We can all decide as a group that > job posting are taboo, but we know full well that some people will still > post them anyway. > > So all I can say is this: I would prefer that we stay generally on topic. > And I would prefer that we not be deluged with trivial questions that are > asked just to save someone else's time at the expense of my time. But > these are my preferences based on my needs. If you or anyone else feels > that it would be a good idea to encourage people to post off-topic or > trivial questions, just consider what long-term utility you will be > getting from this list. > > There's probably no point to debating this. Its not as if any decision > would be binding, and this really could just be considered more "noise" > on the list anyway. Each person can make up their own mind and do as they > wish. Personally, I'm not going to whine about every post that goes > off-topic or asks something really trivial, nor will I send nasty notes to > people who post jobs here. Its not worth it and doesn't help in any case. > But now and then I think its worthwhile to point out that this list is > only as useful as we make it. > > Chris > > On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Ken Boettger wrote: > > > Chris, > > > > I am not certain I agree with this precept. It is a controversial one and > a common one, I know. But I wonder if it is an appropriate view. I quess I > am a proponent of the "there is no stupid or silly questions" and that > forums are a place of learning. > > > > In addition, I have been in IT for 15 years and work with many languages > and tools. It is very hard to keep everything straight. Many times I will > go to a list to get an answer to a simple issue that I cannot recall the > answer too. Yes, the answer is in the FAQ or in the manuals. And I think > they should be encouraged, but not enforced. The reason being that time is > of the essence for many of us. On many occassions (both in the public and > private sector), I will post a question and then proceed with something else > until a response comes back. From a statistical point of view, it might > take me 5 or 10 minutes to find and read through a FAQ or manual before I > find an anwser (if I can even remember where the manual is - or who borrowed > it last). Using a forum or list, I maybe type a concise question for 30 > seconds, then spend another minute reading the responses - the point here > being that a five fold increase in efficiency is significant from a > temporal, financial and pro! > fe! > > ssional point of view. > > > > My question is, what is the position here? I believe in democracy and > will go either way. But I have on many occasions posted simple questions to > this list. If such questions are not welcome, I will stop using this forum > in that regard. And maybe we should consider an additional forum that > subscribes to a more open view including novice type questions? There is a > definitely a need for such a forum. > > > > -Ken > > > > Ken Boettger > > boettgek@cwu.edu > > http://www.cwu.edu/~boettgek > > x2944 > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Tue Oct 1 17:54:18 2002 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:28:47 -0700 From: David Thorburn Subject: Re: Purpose of this list Wah! Allen, You big baby! Someone called you on being a leech! Grow Up and get qualified! D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allen Cunningham" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 12:37 PM Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > Chris - I certainly don't appreciate being lectured and scolded by you, and > your patronizing little suggestion to take a PeopleTools class. If your > having a bad day, find a better way to deal with it than venting on this > board. This was posted late Fri afternoon, it certainly didn't generate a > lot of 'noise' that you say you are so worried about. If you don't like a > posting, ignore it. > > ac > > -----Original Message----- > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Chris Bennett > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 4:15 PM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > Ken, > > That's an interesting question. Just for clarification let me point out > that my primary concern was the potential trouble I foresaw Allen getting > into if he tries to accomplish his goals by getting "step by step" > instructions from this list. I thought it was a very valid and hopefully > helpful answer to suggest that a class might be in his best interest. > > However, it is true that I was also concerned about the signal/noise ratio > of this list, and I took the opportunity to also suggest that perhaps not > everyone on the list would like to read a question and answer about basic > PeopleTools (please note, however, that even after I said his post was > off-topic and that he would be better served by taking a class, that I > still answered the question). > > Anyway, to attempt to answer your question... > > According the the mailing list "hints and guidelines" > (http://www.sqrug.org/sqr-users/sqr-users-hints.html), the only sections > that directly refer to "etiquette" are the following: > > 1) "keep in mind that over 500 people will receive your message, and that > it will appear in the list archives. Try to keep your messages on-topic > and relatively short. Consider sending your message directly to particular > people if it won't interest many of the list's subscribers." > > 2) "Please do not post job announcements on the sqr-users list, but use > the sqr-jobs list instead. (See Related Mailing Lists for more information > on this list.) A large number of sqr-users subscribers do not want to > receive job announcements (for various reasons) and such posts tend to > cause a lot of disruption of the discussion on the list." > > One could also read section 4.2 "Posting a Message" as strongly implying > that messages posted here should relate specifically to SQR. > > Aside from this, I don't know what the "position" here is any more than > you do (and as I'll explain below, to some extent it really doesn't > matter), but I'll offer up my opinions. > > I'll start with two assumptions. These may be debatable, but I'll throw > them out as a starting point: > > 1) Most people on this list are (more or less) well paid professionals > > 2) If there is too much noise the "gurus" that monitor this list will lose > interest and leave. > > Given these assumptions, I have the following opinions: > > I don't want to be used as someone else's gopher for basic reference > materials, and I suspect that other people on this list would rather not > be used for that purpose either. While I enjoy helping someone who truly > has a difficult or unusual problem, doing other people's work for them > goes beyond the call of duty. Time is, indeed, of the essence for many of > us, as you say. But why would one person's time be more important than > mine? > > I also rely on this list as a resource to help out with any big problems I > might run into, so I'm glad there are some very skilled and knowledgeable > people that monitor this list. I would be really disappointed to see them > leave because this list degenerated into some sort of off-topic "how to > program" tutorial group. > > This list is not moderated, so it is neither democratic (moderator chosen > by vote) nor totalitarian (moderator is the list admin, Ray Ontko). > Anarchy seems more accurate. As such, anyone can really post whatever > they want, and we each make our own decision as to whether it is worth > sticking around based on our own needs. We can all decide as a group that > job posting are taboo, but we know full well that some people will still > post them anyway. > > So all I can say is this: I would prefer that we stay generally on topic. > And I would prefer that we not be deluged with trivial questions that are > asked just to save someone else's time at the expense of my time. But > these are my preferences based on my needs. If you or anyone else feels > that it would be a good idea to encourage people to post off-topic or > trivial questions, just consider what long-term utility you will be > getting from this list. > > There's probably no point to debating this. Its not as if any decision > would be binding, and this really could just be considered more "noise" > on the list anyway. Each person can make up their own mind and do as they > wish. Personally, I'm not going to whine about every post that goes > off-topic or asks something really trivial, nor will I send nasty notes to > people who post jobs here. Its not worth it and doesn't help in any case. > But now and then I think its worthwhile to point out that this list is > only as useful as we make it. > > Chris > > On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Ken Boettger wrote: > > > Chris, > > > > I am not certain I agree with this precept. It is a controversial one and > a common one, I know. But I wonder if it is an appropriate view. I quess I > am a proponent of the "there is no stupid or silly questions" and that > forums are a place of learning. > > > > In addition, I have been in IT for 15 years and work with many languages > and tools. It is very hard to keep everything straight. Many times I will > go to a list to get an answer to a simple issue that I cannot recall the > answer too. Yes, the answer is in the FAQ or in the manuals. And I think > they should be encouraged, but not enforced. The reason being that time is > of the essence for many of us. On many occassions (both in the public and > private sector), I will post a question and then proceed with something else > until a response comes back. From a statistical point of view, it might > take me 5 or 10 minutes to find and read through a FAQ or manual before I > find an anwser (if I can even remember where the manual is - or who borrowed > it last). Using a forum or list, I maybe type a concise question for 30 > seconds, then spend another minute reading the responses - the point here > being that a five fold increase in efficiency is significant from a > temporal, financial and pro! > fe! > > ssional point of view. > > > > My question is, what is the position here? I believe in democracy and > will go either way. But I have on many occasions posted simple questions to > this list. If such questions are not welcome, I will stop using this forum > in that regard. And maybe we should consider an additional forum that > subscribes to a more open view including novice type questions? There is a > definitely a need for such a forum. > > > > -Ken > > > > Ken Boettger > > boettgek@cwu.edu > > http://www.cwu.edu/~boettgek > > x2944 > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 08:56:08 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:25:55 -0400 From: "Christenson, Amy" Subject: Re: Purpose of this list Why don't you run for professional help and in the meantime stop abusing this forum. -----Original Message----- From: David Thorburn [mailto:thorburn@CONL.NET] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:25 PM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Purpose of this list perfect example of an unfocused liberal PC wishy washy response to a very serious situation. Why don't you run for President? D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christenson, Amy" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 1:22 PM Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > I do; If you need help with PeopleSoft specific questions in the future, > please join us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peoplesoft-fans . I belong > to both groups but move back and forth depending on my question. That way > you can avoid at least a portion of this in the future. > > Amy > > -----Original Message----- > From: Aaron M. Reiff [mailto:aaron.reiff@MAIL.RGSTR.WISC.EDU] > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 4:03 PM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > Perhaps we should all move on. All points seems to have been expressed, > aired and otherwise worn-out. > > Does anyone have anything productive and non-threatening to say regarding > this issue before we return to the business at hand? > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Allen Cunningham > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:37 PM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > Chris - I certainly don't appreciate being lectured and scolded by you, and > your patronizing little suggestion to take a PeopleTools class. If your > having a bad day, find a better way to deal with it than venting on this > board. This was posted late Fri afternoon, it certainly didn't generate a > lot of 'noise' that you say you are so worried about. If you don't like a > posting, ignore it. > > ac > > -----Original Message----- > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Chris Bennett > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 4:15 PM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > Ken, > > That's an interesting question. Just for clarification let me point out > that my primary concern was the potential trouble I foresaw Allen getting > into if he tries to accomplish his goals by getting "step by step" > instructions from this list. I thought it was a very valid and hopefully > helpful answer to suggest that a class might be in his best interest. > > However, it is true that I was also concerned about the signal/noise ratio > of this list, and I took the opportunity to also suggest that perhaps not > everyone on the list would like to read a question and answer about basic > PeopleTools (please note, however, that even after I said his post was > off-topic and that he would be better served by taking a class, that I > still answered the question). > > Anyway, to attempt to answer your question... > > According the the mailing list "hints and guidelines" > (http://www.sqrug.org/sqr-users/sqr-users-hints.html), the only sections > that directly refer to "etiquette" are the following: > > 1) "keep in mind that over 500 people will receive your message, and that > it will appear in the list archives. Try to keep your messages on-topic > and relatively short. Consider sending your message directly to particular > people if it won't interest many of the list's subscribers." > > 2) "Please do not post job announcements on the sqr-users list, but use > the sqr-jobs list instead. (See Related Mailing Lists for more information > on this list.) A large number of sqr-users subscribers do not want to > receive job announcements (for various reasons) and such posts tend to > cause a lot of disruption of the discussion on the list." > > One could also read section 4.2 "Posting a Message" as strongly implying > that messages posted here should relate specifically to SQR. > > Aside from this, I don't know what the "position" here is any more than > you do (and as I'll explain below, to some extent it really doesn't > matter), but I'll offer up my opinions. > > I'll start with two assumptions. These may be debatable, but I'll throw > them out as a starting point: > > 1) Most people on this list are (more or less) well paid professionals > > 2) If there is too much noise the "gurus" that monitor this list will lose > interest and leave. > > Given these assumptions, I have the following opinions: > > I don't want to be used as someone else's gopher for basic reference > materials, and I suspect that other people on this list would rather not > be used for that purpose either. While I enjoy helping someone who truly > has a difficult or unusual problem, doing other people's work for them > goes beyond the call of duty. Time is, indeed, of the essence for many of > us, as you say. But why would one person's time be more important than > mine? > > I also rely on this list as a resource to help out with any big problems I > might run into, so I'm glad there are some very skilled and knowledgeable > people that monitor this list. I would be really disappointed to see them > leave because this list degenerated into some sort of off-topic "how to > program" tutorial group. > > This list is not moderated, so it is neither democratic (moderator chosen > by vote) nor totalitarian (moderator is the list admin, Ray Ontko). > Anarchy seems more accurate. As such, anyone can really post whatever > they want, and we each make our own decision as to whether it is worth > sticking around based on our own needs. We can all decide as a group that > job posting are taboo, but we know full well that some people will still > post them anyway. > > So all I can say is this: I would prefer that we stay generally on topic. > And I would prefer that we not be deluged with trivial questions that are > asked just to save someone else's time at the expense of my time. But > these are my preferences based on my needs. If you or anyone else feels > that it would be a good idea to encourage people to post off-topic or > trivial questions, just consider what long-term utility you will be > getting from this list. > > There's probably no point to debating this. Its not as if any decision > would be binding, and this really could just be considered more "noise" > on the list anyway. Each person can make up their own mind and do as they > wish. Personally, I'm not going to whine about every post that goes > off-topic or asks something really trivial, nor will I send nasty notes to > people who post jobs here. Its not worth it and doesn't help in any case. > But now and then I think its worthwhile to point out that this list is > only as useful as we make it. > > Chris > > On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Ken Boettger wrote: > > > Chris, > > > > I am not certain I agree with this precept. It is a controversial one and > a common one, I know. But I wonder if it is an appropriate view. I quess I > am a proponent of the "there is no stupid or silly questions" and that > forums are a place of learning. > > > > In addition, I have been in IT for 15 years and work with many languages > and tools. It is very hard to keep everything straight. Many times I will > go to a list to get an answer to a simple issue that I cannot recall the > answer too. Yes, the answer is in the FAQ or in the manuals. And I think > they should be encouraged, but not enforced. The reason being that time is > of the essence for many of us. On many occassions (both in the public and > private sector), I will post a question and then proceed with something else > until a response comes back. From a statistical point of view, it might > take me 5 or 10 minutes to find and read through a FAQ or manual before I > find an anwser (if I can even remember where the manual is - or who borrowed > it last). Using a forum or list, I maybe type a concise question for 30 > seconds, then spend another minute reading the responses - the point here > being that a five fold increase in efficiency is significant from a > temporal, financial and pro! > fe! > > ssional point of view. > > > > My question is, what is the position here? I believe in democracy and > will go either way. But I have on many occasions posted simple questions to > this list. If such questions are not welcome, I will stop using this forum > in that regard. And maybe we should consider an additional forum that > subscribes to a more open view including novice type questions? There is a > definitely a need for such a forum. > > > > -Ken > > > > Ken Boettger > > boettgek@cwu.edu > > http://www.cwu.edu/~boettgek > > x2944 > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 10:29:45 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 08:04:57 -0700 From: Allen Cunningham Subject: Re: Purpose of this list I agree Amy, there's just a handful of these idiots like him who have destroyed this list. ac -----Original Message----- From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Christenson, Amy Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 6:26 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Purpose of this list Why don't you run for professional help and in the meantime stop abusing this forum. -----Original Message----- From: David Thorburn [mailto:thorburn@CONL.NET] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:25 PM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Purpose of this list perfect example of an unfocused liberal PC wishy washy response to a very serious situation. Why don't you run for President? D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christenson, Amy" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 1:22 PM Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > I do; If you need help with PeopleSoft specific questions in the future, > please join us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peoplesoft-fans . I belong > to both groups but move back and forth depending on my question. That way > you can avoid at least a portion of this in the future. > > Amy > > -----Original Message----- > From: Aaron M. Reiff [mailto:aaron.reiff@MAIL.RGSTR.WISC.EDU] > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 4:03 PM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > Perhaps we should all move on. All points seems to have been expressed, > aired and otherwise worn-out. > > Does anyone have anything productive and non-threatening to say regarding > this issue before we return to the business at hand? > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Allen Cunningham > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:37 PM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > Chris - I certainly don't appreciate being lectured and scolded by you, and > your patronizing little suggestion to take a PeopleTools class. If your > having a bad day, find a better way to deal with it than venting on this > board. This was posted late Fri afternoon, it certainly didn't generate a > lot of 'noise' that you say you are so worried about. If you don't like a > posting, ignore it. > > ac > > -----Original Message----- > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Chris Bennett > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 4:15 PM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > Ken, > > That's an interesting question. Just for clarification let me point out > that my primary concern was the potential trouble I foresaw Allen getting > into if he tries to accomplish his goals by getting "step by step" > instructions from this list. I thought it was a very valid and hopefully > helpful answer to suggest that a class might be in his best interest. > > However, it is true that I was also concerned about the signal/noise ratio > of this list, and I took the opportunity to also suggest that perhaps not > everyone on the list would like to read a question and answer about basic > PeopleTools (please note, however, that even after I said his post was > off-topic and that he would be better served by taking a class, that I > still answered the question). > > Anyway, to attempt to answer your question... > > According the the mailing list "hints and guidelines" > (http://www.sqrug.org/sqr-users/sqr-users-hints.html), the only sections > that directly refer to "etiquette" are the following: > > 1) "keep in mind that over 500 people will receive your message, and that > it will appear in the list archives. Try to keep your messages on-topic > and relatively short. Consider sending your message directly to particular > people if it won't interest many of the list's subscribers." > > 2) "Please do not post job announcements on the sqr-users list, but use > the sqr-jobs list instead. (See Related Mailing Lists for more information > on this list.) A large number of sqr-users subscribers do not want to > receive job announcements (for various reasons) and such posts tend to > cause a lot of disruption of the discussion on the list." > > One could also read section 4.2 "Posting a Message" as strongly implying > that messages posted here should relate specifically to SQR. > > Aside from this, I don't know what the "position" here is any more than > you do (and as I'll explain below, to some extent it really doesn't > matter), but I'll offer up my opinions. > > I'll start with two assumptions. These may be debatable, but I'll throw > them out as a starting point: > > 1) Most people on this list are (more or less) well paid professionals > > 2) If there is too much noise the "gurus" that monitor this list will lose > interest and leave. > > Given these assumptions, I have the following opinions: > > I don't want to be used as someone else's gopher for basic reference > materials, and I suspect that other people on this list would rather not > be used for that purpose either. While I enjoy helping someone who truly > has a difficult or unusual problem, doing other people's work for them > goes beyond the call of duty. Time is, indeed, of the essence for many of > us, as you say. But why would one person's time be more important than > mine? > > I also rely on this list as a resource to help out with any big problems I > might run into, so I'm glad there are some very skilled and knowledgeable > people that monitor this list. I would be really disappointed to see them > leave because this list degenerated into some sort of off-topic "how to > program" tutorial group. > > This list is not moderated, so it is neither democratic (moderator chosen > by vote) nor totalitarian (moderator is the list admin, Ray Ontko). > Anarchy seems more accurate. As such, anyone can really post whatever > they want, and we each make our own decision as to whether it is worth > sticking around based on our own needs. We can all decide as a group that > job posting are taboo, but we know full well that some people will still > post them anyway. > > So all I can say is this: I would prefer that we stay generally on topic. > And I would prefer that we not be deluged with trivial questions that are > asked just to save someone else's time at the expense of my time. But > these are my preferences based on my needs. If you or anyone else feels > that it would be a good idea to encourage people to post off-topic or > trivial questions, just consider what long-term utility you will be > getting from this list. > > There's probably no point to debating this. Its not as if any decision > would be binding, and this really could just be considered more "noise" > on the list anyway. Each person can make up their own mind and do as they > wish. Personally, I'm not going to whine about every post that goes > off-topic or asks something really trivial, nor will I send nasty notes to > people who post jobs here. Its not worth it and doesn't help in any case. > But now and then I think its worthwhile to point out that this list is > only as useful as we make it. > > Chris > > On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Ken Boettger wrote: > > > Chris, > > > > I am not certain I agree with this precept. It is a controversial one and > a common one, I know. But I wonder if it is an appropriate view. I quess I > am a proponent of the "there is no stupid or silly questions" and that > forums are a place of learning. > > > > In addition, I have been in IT for 15 years and work with many languages > and tools. It is very hard to keep everything straight. Many times I will > go to a list to get an answer to a simple issue that I cannot recall the > answer too. Yes, the answer is in the FAQ or in the manuals. And I think > they should be encouraged, but not enforced. The reason being that time is > of the essence for many of us. On many occassions (both in the public and > private sector), I will post a question and then proceed with something else > until a response comes back. From a statistical point of view, it might > take me 5 or 10 minutes to find and read through a FAQ or manual before I > find an anwser (if I can even remember where the manual is - or who borrowed > it last). Using a forum or list, I maybe type a concise question for 30 > seconds, then spend another minute reading the responses - the point here > being that a five fold increase in efficiency is significant from a > temporal, financial and pro! > fe! > > ssional point of view. > > > > My question is, what is the position here? I believe in democracy and > will go either way. But I have on many occasions posted simple questions to > this list. If such questions are not welcome, I will stop using this forum > in that regard. And maybe we should consider an additional forum that > subscribes to a more open view including novice type questions? There is a > definitely a need for such a forum. > > > > -Ken > > > > Ken Boettger > > boettgek@cwu.edu > > http://www.cwu.edu/~boettgek > > x2944 > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 18:48:25 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:02:12 -0700 From: David Thorburn Subject: Re: Purpose of this list To Allen the can't-program, whiney, wimp, name caller... Why don't you shut the $%^## up or say that to my face you whiney liberal yap! I have every right to express my opinion. SQR is a programming language and this forum is for programmers, not touchy feely mealy-mouthed liberals like you. I make my living programming as do others out here who are concerned about the the effect of offshore piracy on our careers. What's the matter, am I getting in the way of your effort to get others to do your work for you! D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allen Cunningham" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 8:04 AM Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > I agree Amy, there's just a handful of these idiots like him who have > destroyed this list. > > ac > > -----Original Message----- > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Christenson, Amy > Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 6:26 AM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > Why don't you run for professional help and in the meantime stop abusing > this forum. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Thorburn [mailto:thorburn@CONL.NET] > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:25 PM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > perfect example of an unfocused liberal PC wishy washy response to a very > serious > situation. > > Why don't you run for President? > > > > D. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christenson, Amy" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 1:22 PM > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > I do; If you need help with PeopleSoft specific questions in the future, > > please join us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peoplesoft-fans . I belong > > to both groups but move back and forth depending on my question. That way > > you can avoid at least a portion of this in the future. > > > > Amy > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Aaron M. Reiff [mailto:aaron.reiff@MAIL.RGSTR.WISC.EDU] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 4:03 PM > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > > > Perhaps we should all move on. All points seems to have been expressed, > > aired and otherwise worn-out. > > > > Does anyone have anything productive and non-threatening to say regarding > > this issue before we return to the business at hand? > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Allen Cunningham > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:37 PM > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > > > Chris - I certainly don't appreciate being lectured and scolded by you, > and > > your patronizing little suggestion to take a PeopleTools class. If your > > having a bad day, find a better way to deal with it than venting on this > > board. This was posted late Fri afternoon, it certainly didn't generate a > > lot of 'noise' that you say you are so worried about. If you don't like a > > posting, ignore it. > > > > ac > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Chris Bennett > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 4:15 PM > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > > > Ken, > > > > That's an interesting question. Just for clarification let me point out > > that my primary concern was the potential trouble I foresaw Allen getting > > into if he tries to accomplish his goals by getting "step by step" > > instructions from this list. I thought it was a very valid and hopefully > > helpful answer to suggest that a class might be in his best interest. > > > > However, it is true that I was also concerned about the signal/noise ratio > > of this list, and I took the opportunity to also suggest that perhaps not > > everyone on the list would like to read a question and answer about basic > > PeopleTools (please note, however, that even after I said his post was > > off-topic and that he would be better served by taking a class, that I > > still answered the question). > > > > Anyway, to attempt to answer your question... > > > > According the the mailing list "hints and guidelines" > > (http://www.sqrug.org/sqr-users/sqr-users-hints.html), the only sections > > that directly refer to "etiquette" are the following: > > > > 1) "keep in mind that over 500 people will receive your message, and that > > it will appear in the list archives. Try to keep your messages on-topic > > and relatively short. Consider sending your message directly to particular > > people if it won't interest many of the list's subscribers." > > > > 2) "Please do not post job announcements on the sqr-users list, but use > > the sqr-jobs list instead. (See Related Mailing Lists for more information > > on this list.) A large number of sqr-users subscribers do not want to > > receive job announcements (for various reasons) and such posts tend to > > cause a lot of disruption of the discussion on the list." > > > > One could also read section 4.2 "Posting a Message" as strongly implying > > that messages posted here should relate specifically to SQR. > > > > Aside from this, I don't know what the "position" here is any more than > > you do (and as I'll explain below, to some extent it really doesn't > > matter), but I'll offer up my opinions. > > > > I'll start with two assumptions. These may be debatable, but I'll throw > > them out as a starting point: > > > > 1) Most people on this list are (more or less) well paid professionals > > > > 2) If there is too much noise the "gurus" that monitor this list will lose > > interest and leave. > > > > Given these assumptions, I have the following opinions: > > > > I don't want to be used as someone else's gopher for basic reference > > materials, and I suspect that other people on this list would rather not > > be used for that purpose either. While I enjoy helping someone who truly > > has a difficult or unusual problem, doing other people's work for them > > goes beyond the call of duty. Time is, indeed, of the essence for many of > > us, as you say. But why would one person's time be more important than > > mine? > > > > I also rely on this list as a resource to help out with any big problems I > > might run into, so I'm glad there are some very skilled and knowledgeable > > people that monitor this list. I would be really disappointed to see them > > leave because this list degenerated into some sort of off-topic "how to > > program" tutorial group. > > > > This list is not moderated, so it is neither democratic (moderator chosen > > by vote) nor totalitarian (moderator is the list admin, Ray Ontko). > > Anarchy seems more accurate. As such, anyone can really post whatever > > they want, and we each make our own decision as to whether it is worth > > sticking around based on our own needs. We can all decide as a group that > > job posting are taboo, but we know full well that some people will still > > post them anyway. > > > > So all I can say is this: I would prefer that we stay generally on topic. > > And I would prefer that we not be deluged with trivial questions that are > > asked just to save someone else's time at the expense of my time. But > > these are my preferences based on my needs. If you or anyone else feels > > that it would be a good idea to encourage people to post off-topic or > > trivial questions, just consider what long-term utility you will be > > getting from this list. > > > > There's probably no point to debating this. Its not as if any decision > > would be binding, and this really could just be considered more "noise" > > on the list anyway. Each person can make up their own mind and do as they > > wish. Personally, I'm not going to whine about every post that goes > > off-topic or asks something really trivial, nor will I send nasty notes to > > people who post jobs here. Its not worth it and doesn't help in any case. > > But now and then I think its worthwhile to point out that this list is > > only as useful as we make it. > > > > Chris > > > > On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Ken Boettger wrote: > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > I am not certain I agree with this precept. It is a controversial one > and > > a common one, I know. But I wonder if it is an appropriate view. I quess I > > am a proponent of the "there is no stupid or silly questions" and that > > forums are a place of learning. > > > > > > In addition, I have been in IT for 15 years and work with many languages > > and tools. It is very hard to keep everything straight. Many times I will > > go to a list to get an answer to a simple issue that I cannot recall the > > answer too. Yes, the answer is in the FAQ or in the manuals. And I think > > they should be encouraged, but not enforced. The reason being that time is > > of the essence for many of us. On many occassions (both in the public and > > private sector), I will post a question and then proceed with something > else > > until a response comes back. From a statistical point of view, it might > > take me 5 or 10 minutes to find and read through a FAQ or manual before I > > find an anwser (if I can even remember where the manual is - or who > borrowed > > it last). Using a forum or list, I maybe type a concise question for 30 > > seconds, then spend another minute reading the responses - the point here > > being that a five fold increase in efficiency is significant from a > > temporal, financial and pro! > > fe! > > > ssional point of view. > > > > > > My question is, what is the position here? I believe in democracy and > > will go either way. But I have on many occasions posted simple questions > to > > this list. If such questions are not welcome, I will stop using this forum > > in that regard. And maybe we should consider an additional forum that > > subscribes to a more open view including novice type questions? There is > a > > definitely a need for such a forum. > > > > > > -Ken > > > > > > Ken Boettger > > > boettgek@cwu.edu > > > http://www.cwu.edu/~boettgek > > > x2944 > > > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Fri Oct 4 09:29:28 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 19:17:18 -0400 From: Doug Nichols Subject: Re: Purpose of this list Is there any way to get this guy thrown off this list? He's disruptive and abusive and very ignorant. -----Original Message----- From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net] On Behalf Of David Thorburn Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 7:02 PM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Purpose of this list To Allen the can't-program, whiney, wimp, name caller... Why don't you shut the $%^## up or say that to my face you whiney liberal yap! I have every right to express my opinion. SQR is a programming language and this forum is for programmers, not touchy feely mealy-mouthed liberals like you. I make my living programming as do others out here who are concerned about the the effect of offshore piracy on our careers. What's the matter, am I getting in the way of your effort to get others to do your work for you! D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allen Cunningham" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 8:04 AM Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > I agree Amy, there's just a handful of these idiots like him who have > destroyed this list. > > ac > > -----Original Message----- > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Christenson, Amy > Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 6:26 AM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > Why don't you run for professional help and in the meantime stop abusing > this forum. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Thorburn [mailto:thorburn@CONL.NET] > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:25 PM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > perfect example of an unfocused liberal PC wishy washy response to a very > serious > situation. > > Why don't you run for President? > > > > D. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christenson, Amy" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 1:22 PM > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > I do; If you need help with PeopleSoft specific questions in the future, > > please join us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peoplesoft-fans . I belong > > to both groups but move back and forth depending on my question. That way > > you can avoid at least a portion of this in the future. > > > > Amy > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Aaron M. Reiff [mailto:aaron.reiff@MAIL.RGSTR.WISC.EDU] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 4:03 PM > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > > > Perhaps we should all move on. All points seems to have been expressed, > > aired and otherwise worn-out. > > > > Does anyone have anything productive and non-threatening to say regarding > > this issue before we return to the business at hand? > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Allen Cunningham > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:37 PM > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > > > Chris - I certainly don't appreciate being lectured and scolded by you, > and > > your patronizing little suggestion to take a PeopleTools class. If your > > having a bad day, find a better way to deal with it than venting on this > > board. This was posted late Fri afternoon, it certainly didn't generate a > > lot of 'noise' that you say you are so worried about. If you don't like a > > posting, ignore it. > > > > ac > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Chris Bennett > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 4:15 PM > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > > > Ken, > > > > That's an interesting question. Just for clarification let me point out > > that my primary concern was the potential trouble I foresaw Allen getting > > into if he tries to accomplish his goals by getting "step by step" > > instructions from this list. I thought it was a very valid and hopefully > > helpful answer to suggest that a class might be in his best interest. > > > > However, it is true that I was also concerned about the signal/noise ratio > > of this list, and I took the opportunity to also suggest that perhaps not > > everyone on the list would like to read a question and answer about basic > > PeopleTools (please note, however, that even after I said his post was > > off-topic and that he would be better served by taking a class, that I > > still answered the question). > > > > Anyway, to attempt to answer your question... > > > > According the the mailing list "hints and guidelines" > > (http://www.sqrug.org/sqr-users/sqr-users-hints.html), the only sections > > that directly refer to "etiquette" are the following: > > > > 1) "keep in mind that over 500 people will receive your message, and that > > it will appear in the list archives. Try to keep your messages on-topic > > and relatively short. Consider sending your message directly to particular > > people if it won't interest many of the list's subscribers." > > > > 2) "Please do not post job announcements on the sqr-users list, but use > > the sqr-jobs list instead. (See Related Mailing Lists for more information > > on this list.) A large number of sqr-users subscribers do not want to > > receive job announcements (for various reasons) and such posts tend to > > cause a lot of disruption of the discussion on the list." > > > > One could also read section 4.2 "Posting a Message" as strongly implying > > that messages posted here should relate specifically to SQR. > > > > Aside from this, I don't know what the "position" here is any more than > > you do (and as I'll explain below, to some extent it really doesn't > > matter), but I'll offer up my opinions. > > > > I'll start with two assumptions. These may be debatable, but I'll throw > > them out as a starting point: > > > > 1) Most people on this list are (more or less) well paid professionals > > > > 2) If there is too much noise the "gurus" that monitor this list will lose > > interest and leave. > > > > Given these assumptions, I have the following opinions: > > > > I don't want to be used as someone else's gopher for basic reference > > materials, and I suspect that other people on this list would rather not > > be used for that purpose either. While I enjoy helping someone who truly > > has a difficult or unusual problem, doing other people's work for them > > goes beyond the call of duty. Time is, indeed, of the essence for many of > > us, as you say. But why would one person's time be more important than > > mine? > > > > I also rely on this list as a resource to help out with any big problems I > > might run into, so I'm glad there are some very skilled and knowledgeable > > people that monitor this list. I would be really disappointed to see them > > leave because this list degenerated into some sort of off-topic "how to > > program" tutorial group. > > > > This list is not moderated, so it is neither democratic (moderator chosen > > by vote) nor totalitarian (moderator is the list admin, Ray Ontko). > > Anarchy seems more accurate. As such, anyone can really post whatever > > they want, and we each make our own decision as to whether it is worth > > sticking around based on our own needs. We can all decide as a group that > > job posting are taboo, but we know full well that some people will still > > post them anyway. > > > > So all I can say is this: I would prefer that we stay generally on topic. > > And I would prefer that we not be deluged with trivial questions that are > > asked just to save someone else's time at the expense of my time. But > > these are my preferences based on my needs. If you or anyone else feels > > that it would be a good idea to encourage people to post off-topic or > > trivial questions, just consider what long-term utility you will be > > getting from this list. > > > > There's probably no point to debating this. Its not as if any decision > > would be binding, and this really could just be considered more "noise" > > on the list anyway. Each person can make up their own mind and do as they > > wish. Personally, I'm not going to whine about every post that goes > > off-topic or asks something really trivial, nor will I send nasty notes to > > people who post jobs here. Its not worth it and doesn't help in any case. > > But now and then I think its worthwhile to point out that this list is > > only as useful as we make it. > > > > Chris > > > > On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Ken Boettger wrote: > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > I am not certain I agree with this precept. It is a controversial one > and > > a common one, I know. But I wonder if it is an appropriate view. I quess I > > am a proponent of the "there is no stupid or silly questions" and that > > forums are a place of learning. > > > > > > In addition, I have been in IT for 15 years and work with many languages > > and tools. It is very hard to keep everything straight. Many times I will > > go to a list to get an answer to a simple issue that I cannot recall the > > answer too. Yes, the answer is in the FAQ or in the manuals. And I think > > they should be encouraged, but not enforced. The reason being that time is > > of the essence for many of us. On many occassions (both in the public and > > private sector), I will post a question and then proceed with something > else > > until a response comes back. From a statistical point of view, it might > > take me 5 or 10 minutes to find and read through a FAQ or manual before I > > find an anwser (if I can even remember where the manual is - or who > borrowed > > it last). Using a forum or list, I maybe type a concise question for 30 > > seconds, then spend another minute reading the responses - the point here > > being that a five fold increase in efficiency is significant from a > > temporal, financial and pro! > > fe! > > > ssional point of view. > > > > > > My question is, what is the position here? I believe in democracy and > > will go either way. But I have on many occasions posted simple questions > to > > this list. If such questions are not welcome, I will stop using this forum > > in that regard. And maybe we should consider an additional forum that > > subscribes to a more open view including novice type questions? There is > a > > definitely a need for such a forum. > > > > > > -Ken > > > > > > Ken Boettger > > > boettgek@cwu.edu > > > http://www.cwu.edu/~boettgek > > > x2944 > > > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Fri Oct 4 09:47:15 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 09:28:49 -0500 From: Ray Ontko Subject: Re: Purpose of this list Doug, On Wed, Oct 02, 2002 at 07:17:18PM -0400, Doug Nichols wrote: > Is there any way to get this guy thrown off this list? He's disruptive > and abusive and very ignorant. >From a technical standpoint, it's certainly possible, but, I'd prefer not to resort to totalitarian tactics. Clearly, Dave Thornburn feels his job security is threatened by competition from oversees, and as others have mentioned, there may be some political issues that are worthy of discussion. I'm pleased that Ken has created a separate forum for this and I hope that the conversation can proceed there more constructively and sensitively than it has here. I too feel that the work opportunities for consultants (including SQR consultants) has changed, but I perceive that the problem is less due to overseas competition and more due to the recession and the fact that fewer companies are investing as heavily in technology right now. It may also be time to learn a new language. I'm still a strong supporter of SQR, but I've take the time to learn a lot about Java and web-based technologies. If I stop learning new technologies, I won't be able to differentiate myself from the crowd. It may be time to catch a new wave. My own opinion about the list is that none of us has complete access to the Truth, and that we'll learn a lot more from each other if we listen to one another carefully and respond respectfully. Ray ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ray Ontko rayo@ontko.com Phone 1.765.935.4283 Fax 1.765.962.9788 Ray Ontko & Co. Software Consulting Services http://www.ontko.com/ From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Fri Oct 4 17:48:02 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 15:20:41 -0700 From: David Thorburn Subject: Re: Purpose of this list All, Why would Doug Nichols want me thorwn off the list for speaking the truth? This isn't the Soviet Union! I think Doug has problems that are well beyond the scope of this list! D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Ontko" To: Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 7:28 AM Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > Doug, > > On Wed, Oct 02, 2002 at 07:17:18PM -0400, Doug Nichols wrote: > > Is there any way to get this guy thrown off this list? He's disruptive > > and abusive and very ignorant. > > From a technical standpoint, it's certainly possible, but, I'd > prefer not to resort to totalitarian tactics. > > Clearly, Dave Thornburn feels his job security is threatened by > competition from oversees, and as others have mentioned, there may > be some political issues that are worthy of discussion. I'm pleased > that Ken has created a separate forum for this and I hope that the > conversation can proceed there more constructively and sensitively > than it has here. > > I too feel that the work opportunities for consultants (including > SQR consultants) has changed, but I perceive that the problem is > less due to overseas competition and more due to the recession and > the fact that fewer companies are investing as heavily in technology > right now. It may also be time to learn a new language. I'm still > a strong supporter of SQR, but I've take the time to learn a lot > about Java and web-based technologies. If I stop learning new > technologies, I won't be able to differentiate myself from the > crowd. It may be time to catch a new wave. > > My own opinion about the list is that none of us has complete access > to the Truth, and that we'll learn a lot more from each other if we > listen to one another carefully and respond respectfully. > > Ray > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ray Ontko rayo@ontko.com Phone 1.765.935.4283 Fax 1.765.962.9788 > Ray Ontko & Co. Software Consulting Services http://www.ontko.com/ > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Fri Oct 4 09:30:25 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:04:34 -0700 From: David Thorburn Subject: Re: Purpose of this list Shouldn't you see your OB GYN or something! D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christenson, Amy" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 6:25 AM Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > Why don't you run for professional help and in the meantime stop abusing > this forum. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Thorburn [mailto:thorburn@CONL.NET] > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:25 PM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > perfect example of an unfocused liberal PC wishy washy response to a very > serious > situation. > > Why don't you run for President? > > > > D. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christenson, Amy" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 1:22 PM > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > I do; If you need help with PeopleSoft specific questions in the future, > > please join us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peoplesoft-fans . I belong > > to both groups but move back and forth depending on my question. That way > > you can avoid at least a portion of this in the future. > > > > Amy > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Aaron M. Reiff [mailto:aaron.reiff@MAIL.RGSTR.WISC.EDU] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 4:03 PM > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > > > Perhaps we should all move on. All points seems to have been expressed, > > aired and otherwise worn-out. > > > > Does anyone have anything productive and non-threatening to say regarding > > this issue before we return to the business at hand? > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Allen Cunningham > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:37 PM > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > > > Chris - I certainly don't appreciate being lectured and scolded by you, > and > > your patronizing little suggestion to take a PeopleTools class. If your > > having a bad day, find a better way to deal with it than venting on this > > board. This was posted late Fri afternoon, it certainly didn't generate a > > lot of 'noise' that you say you are so worried about. If you don't like a > > posting, ignore it. > > > > ac > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Chris Bennett > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 4:15 PM > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > > > Ken, > > > > That's an interesting question. Just for clarification let me point out > > that my primary concern was the potential trouble I foresaw Allen getting > > into if he tries to accomplish his goals by getting "step by step" > > instructions from this list. I thought it was a very valid and hopefully > > helpful answer to suggest that a class might be in his best interest. > > > > However, it is true that I was also concerned about the signal/noise ratio > > of this list, and I took the opportunity to also suggest that perhaps not > > everyone on the list would like to read a question and answer about basic > > PeopleTools (please note, however, that even after I said his post was > > off-topic and that he would be better served by taking a class, that I > > still answered the question). > > > > Anyway, to attempt to answer your question... > > > > According the the mailing list "hints and guidelines" > > (http://www.sqrug.org/sqr-users/sqr-users-hints.html), the only sections > > that directly refer to "etiquette" are the following: > > > > 1) "keep in mind that over 500 people will receive your message, and that > > it will appear in the list archives. Try to keep your messages on-topic > > and relatively short. Consider sending your message directly to particular > > people if it won't interest many of the list's subscribers." > > > > 2) "Please do not post job announcements on the sqr-users list, but use > > the sqr-jobs list instead. (See Related Mailing Lists for more information > > on this list.) A large number of sqr-users subscribers do not want to > > receive job announcements (for various reasons) and such posts tend to > > cause a lot of disruption of the discussion on the list." > > > > One could also read section 4.2 "Posting a Message" as strongly implying > > that messages posted here should relate specifically to SQR. > > > > Aside from this, I don't know what the "position" here is any more than > > you do (and as I'll explain below, to some extent it really doesn't > > matter), but I'll offer up my opinions. > > > > I'll start with two assumptions. These may be debatable, but I'll throw > > them out as a starting point: > > > > 1) Most people on this list are (more or less) well paid professionals > > > > 2) If there is too much noise the "gurus" that monitor this list will lose > > interest and leave. > > > > Given these assumptions, I have the following opinions: > > > > I don't want to be used as someone else's gopher for basic reference > > materials, and I suspect that other people on this list would rather not > > be used for that purpose either. While I enjoy helping someone who truly > > has a difficult or unusual problem, doing other people's work for them > > goes beyond the call of duty. Time is, indeed, of the essence for many of > > us, as you say. But why would one person's time be more important than > > mine? > > > > I also rely on this list as a resource to help out with any big problems I > > might run into, so I'm glad there are some very skilled and knowledgeable > > people that monitor this list. I would be really disappointed to see them > > leave because this list degenerated into some sort of off-topic "how to > > program" tutorial group. > > > > This list is not moderated, so it is neither democratic (moderator chosen > > by vote) nor totalitarian (moderator is the list admin, Ray Ontko). > > Anarchy seems more accurate. As such, anyone can really post whatever > > they want, and we each make our own decision as to whether it is worth > > sticking around based on our own needs. We can all decide as a group that > > job posting are taboo, but we know full well that some people will still > > post them anyway. > > > > So all I can say is this: I would prefer that we stay generally on topic. > > And I would prefer that we not be deluged with trivial questions that are > > asked just to save someone else's time at the expense of my time. But > > these are my preferences based on my needs. If you or anyone else feels > > that it would be a good idea to encourage people to post off-topic or > > trivial questions, just consider what long-term utility you will be > > getting from this list. > > > > There's probably no point to debating this. Its not as if any decision > > would be binding, and this really could just be considered more "noise" > > on the list anyway. Each person can make up their own mind and do as they > > wish. Personally, I'm not going to whine about every post that goes > > off-topic or asks something really trivial, nor will I send nasty notes to > > people who post jobs here. Its not worth it and doesn't help in any case. > > But now and then I think its worthwhile to point out that this list is > > only as useful as we make it. > > > > Chris > > > > On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Ken Boettger wrote: > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > I am not certain I agree with this precept. It is a controversial one > and > > a common one, I know. But I wonder if it is an appropriate view. I quess I > > am a proponent of the "there is no stupid or silly questions" and that > > forums are a place of learning. > > > > > > In addition, I have been in IT for 15 years and work with many languages > > and tools. It is very hard to keep everything straight. Many times I will > > go to a list to get an answer to a simple issue that I cannot recall the > > answer too. Yes, the answer is in the FAQ or in the manuals. And I think > > they should be encouraged, but not enforced. The reason being that time is > > of the essence for many of us. On many occassions (both in the public and > > private sector), I will post a question and then proceed with something > else > > until a response comes back. From a statistical point of view, it might > > take me 5 or 10 minutes to find and read through a FAQ or manual before I > > find an anwser (if I can even remember where the manual is - or who > borrowed > > it last). Using a forum or list, I maybe type a concise question for 30 > > seconds, then spend another minute reading the responses - the point here > > being that a five fold increase in efficiency is significant from a > > temporal, financial and pro! > > fe! > > > ssional point of view. > > > > > > My question is, what is the position here? I believe in democracy and > > will go either way. But I have on many occasions posted simple questions > to > > this list. If such questions are not welcome, I will stop using this forum > > in that regard. And maybe we should consider an additional forum that > > subscribes to a more open view including novice type questions? There is > a > > definitely a need for such a forum. > > > > > > -Ken > > > > > > Ken Boettger > > > boettgek@cwu.edu > > > http://www.cwu.edu/~boettgek > > > x2944 > > > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 16:09:32 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:45:04 -0400 From: Denise White Subject: Re: Purpose of this list I agree with Amy, and the others who have noted that this list is for SQR, not PeopleSoft. PeopleSoft questions relating to SQR are fine, but this thread had NOTHING to do with SQR. I also agree that even the PeopleSoft list is for PeopleSoft professionals, and not people who are trying to work with PeopleSoft with no appropriate training. Anyone working with PeopleSoft needs at the MINIMUM Tools I & II, and PeopleCode. How to get an edit box with a prompt arrow on a panel is covered in Tools I, and views are the first new material covered in Tools II. Speaking in a general sense (because this is not the only time someone who obviously does not know PeopleSoft has asked for very basic information), there are two possibilities. The person is expected by their management to do something that their management refuses to provide training for. In this case, the management is clearly at fault and the employee should demand the training that they are entitled to. The other possibility is that the person has misrepresented themself as knowing PeopleSoft, got hired as such, and is now trying to live up to the falsehood that they are responsible for. In this case, the individual is at fault. I have no idea which is the case in this situation, but we are not here to provide basic training. I don't expect everyone to have training in every aspect of PeopleSoft, but EVERYONE who is developing in PeopleSoft should have elementary Tools training and at least be familiar with the basic concepts. And if they have access to PeopleBooks (and if not, why not?), they should be able to look up such things as step-by-step instructions on how to create a view. Similar issues should also apply to this list, and SQR. Questions like 'How do I write an SQR?' are simply not appropriate. Simple questions are fine (they're the easiest to answer - LOL!), but ignorant questions are inappropriate. You should try to find an answer within your own resources before taking up the group's time. If you can't find it, or you've found it, but don't understand it or it's not working like you expected, then come ask us. Problem-solving and troubleshooting are important skills, and trying to resolve things on your own will help you develop them, rather than immediately shooting off a question to the list and then sitting back and waiting for an answer. However, when you really need help, that is what this list is for. Denise ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 16:22:28 -0400 From: "Christenson, Amy" Subject: Re: Purpose of this list I do; If you need help with PeopleSoft specific questions in the future, please join us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peoplesoft-fans . I belong to both groups but move back and forth depending on my question. That way you can avoid at least a portion of this in the future. Amy -----Original Message----- From: Aaron M. Reiff [mailto:aaron.reiff@MAIL.RGSTR.WISC.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 4:03 PM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Purpose of this list Perhaps we should all move on. All points seems to have been expressed, aired and otherwise worn-out. Does anyone have anything productive and non-threatening to say regarding this issue before we return to the business at hand? -----Original Message----- From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Allen Cunningham Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:37 PM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Purpose of this list Chris - I certainly don't appreciate being lectured and scolded by you, and your patronizing little suggestion to take a PeopleTools class. If your having a bad day, find a better way to deal with it than venting on this board. This was posted late Fri afternoon, it certainly didn't generate a lot of 'noise' that you say you are so worried about. If you don't like a posting, ignore it. ac From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Fri Oct 4 09:30:58 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 07:25:58 -0300 From: Peter Clark Subject: Re: Purpose of this list pot, kettle, black >>> David Thorburn 2002/10/02 8:02:12 pm >>> To Allen the can't-program, whiney, wimp, name caller... Why don't you shut the $%^## up or say that to my face you whiney liberal yap! I have every right to express my opinion. SQR is a programming language and this forum is for programmers, not touchy feely mealy-mouthed liberals like you. I make my living programming as do others out here who are concerned about the the effect of offshore piracy on our careers. What's the matter, am I getting in the way of your effort to get others to do your work for you! D. - From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Fri Oct 4 09:30:51 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 07:30:12 -0300 From: Peter Clark Subject: Re: Purpose of this list Has anyone else noticed that when these off-topic, name calling storms occur, it seems that Mr. Thorburn is always in the eye of the hurricane? Can we get back to business on this INTERNATIONAL SQR mail list. As others have noted, there are more appropriate forums for political and American-centric issues. >>> David Thorburn 2002/10/02 8:02:12 pm >>> To Allen the can't-program, whiney, wimp, name caller... Why don't you shut the $%^## up or say that to my face you whiney liberal yap! I have every right to express my opinion. SQR is a programming language and this forum is for programmers, not touchy feely mealy-mouthed liberals like you. I make my living programming as do others out here who are concerned about the the effect of offshore piracy on our careers. What's the matter, am I getting in the way of your effort to get others to do your work for you! D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allen Cunningham" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 8:04 AM Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > I agree Amy, there's just a handful of these idiots like him who have > destroyed this list. > > ac > > -----Original Message----- > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Christenson, Amy > Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 6:26 AM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > Why don't you run for professional help and in the meantime stop abusing > this forum. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Thorburn [mailto:thorburn@CONL.NET] > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:25 PM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > perfect example of an unfocused liberal PC wishy washy response to a very > serious > situation. > > Why don't you run for President? > > > > D. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christenson, Amy" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 1:22 PM > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > I do; If you need help with PeopleSoft specific questions in the future, > > please join us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peoplesoft-fans . I belong > > to both groups but move back and forth depending on my question. That way > > you can avoid at least a portion of this in the future. > > > > Amy > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Aaron M. Reiff [mailto:aaron.reiff@MAIL.RGSTR.WISC.EDU] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 4:03 PM > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > > > Perhaps we should all move on. All points seems to have been expressed, > > aired and otherwise worn-out. > > > > Does anyone have anything productive and non-threatening to say regarding > > this issue before we return to the business at hand? > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Allen Cunningham > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:37 PM > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > > > Chris - I certainly don't appreciate being lectured and scolded by you, > and > > your patronizing little suggestion to take a PeopleTools class. If your > > having a bad day, find a better way to deal with it than venting on this > > board. This was posted late Fri afternoon, it certainly didn't generate a > > lot of 'noise' that you say you are so worried about. If you don't like a > > posting, ignore it. > > > > ac > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Chris Bennett > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 4:15 PM > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > > > Ken, > > > > That's an interesting question. Just for clarification let me point out > > that my primary concern was the potential trouble I foresaw Allen getting > > into if he tries to accomplish his goals by getting "step by step" > > instructions from this list. I thought it was a very valid and hopefully > > helpful answer to suggest that a class might be in his best interest. > > > > However, it is true that I was also concerned about the signal/noise ratio > > of this list, and I took the opportunity to also suggest that perhaps not > > everyone on the list would like to read a question and answer about basic > > PeopleTools (please note, however, that even after I said his post was > > off-topic and that he would be better served by taking a class, that I > > still answered the question). > > > > Anyway, to attempt to answer your question... > > > > According the the mailing list "hints and guidelines" > > (http://www.sqrug.org/sqr-users/sqr-users-hints.html), the only sections > > that directly refer to "etiquette" are the following: > > > > 1) "keep in mind that over 500 people will receive your message, and that > > it will appear in the list archives. Try to keep your messages on-topic > > and relatively short. Consider sending your message directly to particular > > people if it won't interest many of the list's subscribers." > > > > 2) "Please do not post job announcements on the sqr-users list, but use > > the sqr-jobs list instead. (See Related Mailing Lists for more information > > on this list.) A large number of sqr-users subscribers do not want to > > receive job announcements (for various reasons) and such posts tend to > > cause a lot of disruption of the discussion on the list." > > > > One could also read section 4.2 "Posting a Message" as strongly implying > > that messages posted here should relate specifically to SQR. > > > > Aside from this, I don't know what the "position" here is any more than > > you do (and as I'll explain below, to some extent it really doesn't > > matter), but I'll offer up my opinions. > > > > I'll start with two assumptions. These may be debatable, but I'll throw > > them out as a starting point: > > > > 1) Most people on this list are (more or less) well paid professionals > > > > 2) If there is too much noise the "gurus" that monitor this list will lose > > interest and leave. > > > > Given these assumptions, I have the following opinions: > > > > I don't want to be used as someone else's gopher for basic reference > > materials, and I suspect that other people on this list would rather not > > be used for that purpose either. While I enjoy helping someone who truly > > has a difficult or unusual problem, doing other people's work for them > > goes beyond the call of duty. Time is, indeed, of the essence for many of > > us, as you say. But why would one person's time be more important than > > mine? > > > > I also rely on this list as a resource to help out with any big problems I > > might run into, so I'm glad there are some very skilled and knowledgeable > > people that monitor this list. I would be really disappointed to see them > > leave because this list degenerated into some sort of off-topic "how to > > program" tutorial group. > > > > This list is not moderated, so it is neither democratic (moderator chosen > > by vote) nor totalitarian (moderator is the list admin, Ray Ontko). > > Anarchy seems more accurate. As such, anyone can really post whatever > > they want, and we each make our own decision as to whether it is worth > > sticking around based on our own needs. We can all decide as a group that > > job posting are taboo, but we know full well that some people will still > > post them anyway. > > > > So all I can say is this: I would prefer that we stay generally on topic. > > And I would prefer that we not be deluged with trivial questions that are > > asked just to save someone else's time at the expense of my time. But > > these are my preferences based on my needs. If you or anyone else feels > > that it would be a good idea to encourage people to post off-topic or > > trivial questions, just consider what long-term utility you will be > > getting from this list. > > > > There's probably no point to debating this. Its not as if any decision > > would be binding, and this really could just be considered more "noise" > > on the list anyway. Each person can make up their own mind and do as they > > wish. Personally, I'm not going to whine about every post that goes > > off-topic or asks something really trivial, nor will I send nasty notes to > > people who post jobs here. Its not worth it and doesn't help in any case. > > But now and then I think its worthwhile to point out that this list is > > only as useful as we make it. > > > > Chris > > > > On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Ken Boettger wrote: > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > I am not certain I agree with this precept. It is a controversial one > and > > a common one, I know. But I wonder if it is an appropriate view. I quess I > > am a proponent of the "there is no stupid or silly questions" and that > > forums are a place of learning. > > > > > > In addition, I have been in IT for 15 years and work with many languages > > and tools. It is very hard to keep everything straight. Many times I will > > go to a list to get an answer to a simple issue that I cannot recall the > > answer too. Yes, the answer is in the FAQ or in the manuals. And I think > > they should be encouraged, but not enforced. The reason being that time is > > of the essence for many of us. On many occassions (both in the public and > > private sector), I will post a question and then proceed with something > else > > until a response comes back. From a statistical point of view, it might > > take me 5 or 10 minutes to find and read through a FAQ or manual before I > > find an anwser (if I can even remember where the manual is - or who > borrowed > > it last). Using a forum or list, I maybe type a concise question for 30 > > seconds, then spend another minute reading the responses - the point here > > being that a five fold increase in efficiency is significant from a > > temporal, financial and pro! > > fe! > > > ssional point of view. > > > > > > My question is, what is the position here? I believe in democracy and > > will go either way. But I have on many occasions posted simple questions > to > > this list. If such questions are not welcome, I will stop using this forum > > in that regard. And maybe we should consider an additional forum that > > subscribes to a more open view including novice type questions? There is > a > > definitely a need for such a forum. > > > > > > -Ken > > > > > > Ken Boettger > > > boettgek@cwu.edu > > > http://www.cwu.edu/~boettgek > > > x2944 > > > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Fri Oct 4 17:49:22 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 15:26:50 -0700 From: David Thorburn Subject: Re: Purpose of this list Has any one noticed that Mr. Clark has nothing else to do but whine any cry to this list? Grow up Peter! D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Clark" To: Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:30 AM Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > Has anyone else noticed that when these off-topic, name calling storms occur, it seems that Mr. Thorburn is always in the eye of the hurricane? > > Can we get back to business on this INTERNATIONAL SQR mail list. As others have noted, there are more appropriate forums for political and American-centric issues. > > >>> David Thorburn 2002/10/02 8:02:12 pm >>> > To Allen the can't-program, whiney, wimp, name caller... > > Why don't you shut the $%^## up or say that to my face you whiney > liberal yap! > > I have every right to express my opinion. SQR is a programming > language and this forum is for programmers, not touchy feely > mealy-mouthed liberals like you. > > I make my living programming as do others out here who are > concerned about the the effect of offshore piracy on our careers. > > What's the matter, am I getting in the way of your effort to get > others to do your work for you! > > D. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Allen Cunningham" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 8:04 AM > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > I agree Amy, there's just a handful of these idiots like him who have > > destroyed this list. > > > > ac > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Christenson, Amy > > Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 6:26 AM > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > > > Why don't you run for professional help and in the meantime stop abusing > > this forum. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: David Thorburn [mailto:thorburn@CONL.NET] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:25 PM > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > > > perfect example of an unfocused liberal PC wishy washy response to a very > > serious > > situation. > > > > Why don't you run for President? > > > > > > > > D. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Christenson, Amy" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 1:22 PM > > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > > > > I do; If you need help with PeopleSoft specific questions in the future, > > > please join us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peoplesoft-fans . I > belong > > > to both groups but move back and forth depending on my question. That > way > > > you can avoid at least a portion of this in the future. > > > > > > Amy > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Aaron M. Reiff [mailto:aaron.reiff@MAIL.RGSTR.WISC.EDU] > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 4:03 PM > > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > > > > > > Perhaps we should all move on. All points seems to have been expressed, > > > aired and otherwise worn-out. > > > > > > Does anyone have anything productive and non-threatening to say > regarding > > > this issue before we return to the business at hand? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > > > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Allen Cunningham > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:37 PM > > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > > > > > > Chris - I certainly don't appreciate being lectured and scolded by you, > > and > > > your patronizing little suggestion to take a PeopleTools class. If your > > > having a bad day, find a better way to deal with it than venting on this > > > board. This was posted late Fri afternoon, it certainly didn't generate > a > > > lot of 'noise' that you say you are so worried about. If you don't like > a > > > posting, ignore it. > > > > > > ac > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > > > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Chris Bennett > > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 4:15 PM > > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > > > > > > Ken, > > > > > > That's an interesting question. Just for clarification let me point out > > > that my primary concern was the potential trouble I foresaw Allen > getting > > > into if he tries to accomplish his goals by getting "step by step" > > > instructions from this list. I thought it was a very valid and > hopefully > > > helpful answer to suggest that a class might be in his best interest. > > > > > > However, it is true that I was also concerned about the signal/noise > ratio > > > of this list, and I took the opportunity to also suggest that perhaps > not > > > everyone on the list would like to read a question and answer about > basic > > > PeopleTools (please note, however, that even after I said his post was > > > off-topic and that he would be better served by taking a class, that I > > > still answered the question). > > > > > > Anyway, to attempt to answer your question... > > > > > > According the the mailing list "hints and guidelines" > > > (http://www.sqrug.org/sqr-users/sqr-users-hints.html), the only sections > > > that directly refer to "etiquette" are the following: > > > > > > 1) "keep in mind that over 500 people will receive your message, and > that > > > it will appear in the list archives. Try to keep your messages on-topic > > > and relatively short. Consider sending your message directly to > particular > > > people if it won't interest many of the list's subscribers." > > > > > > 2) "Please do not post job announcements on the sqr-users list, but use > > > the sqr-jobs list instead. (See Related Mailing Lists for more > information > > > on this list.) A large number of sqr-users subscribers do not want to > > > receive job announcements (for various reasons) and such posts tend to > > > cause a lot of disruption of the discussion on the list." > > > > > > One could also read section 4.2 "Posting a Message" as strongly implying > > > that messages posted here should relate specifically to SQR. > > > > > > Aside from this, I don't know what the "position" here is any more than > > > you do (and as I'll explain below, to some extent it really doesn't > > > matter), but I'll offer up my opinions. > > > > > > I'll start with two assumptions. These may be debatable, but I'll throw > > > them out as a starting point: > > > > > > 1) Most people on this list are (more or less) well paid professionals > > > > > > 2) If there is too much noise the "gurus" that monitor this list will > lose > > > interest and leave. > > > > > > Given these assumptions, I have the following opinions: > > > > > > I don't want to be used as someone else's gopher for basic reference > > > materials, and I suspect that other people on this list would rather not > > > be used for that purpose either. While I enjoy helping someone who > truly > > > has a difficult or unusual problem, doing other people's work for them > > > goes beyond the call of duty. Time is, indeed, of the essence for many > of > > > us, as you say. But why would one person's time be more important than > > > mine? > > > > > > I also rely on this list as a resource to help out with any big problems > I > > > might run into, so I'm glad there are some very skilled and > knowledgeable > > > people that monitor this list. I would be really disappointed to see > them > > > leave because this list degenerated into some sort of off-topic "how to > > > program" tutorial group. > > > > > > This list is not moderated, so it is neither democratic (moderator > chosen > > > by vote) nor totalitarian (moderator is the list admin, Ray Ontko). > > > Anarchy seems more accurate. As such, anyone can really post whatever > > > they want, and we each make our own decision as to whether it is worth > > > sticking around based on our own needs. We can all decide as a group > that > > > job posting are taboo, but we know full well that some people will still > > > post them anyway. > > > > > > So all I can say is this: I would prefer that we stay generally on > topic. > > > And I would prefer that we not be deluged with trivial questions that > are > > > asked just to save someone else's time at the expense of my time. But > > > these are my preferences based on my needs. If you or anyone else feels > > > that it would be a good idea to encourage people to post off-topic or > > > trivial questions, just consider what long-term utility you will be > > > getting from this list. > > > > > > There's probably no point to debating this. Its not as if any decision > > > would be binding, and this really could just be considered more "noise" > > > on the list anyway. Each person can make up their own mind and do as > they > > > wish. Personally, I'm not going to whine about every post that goes > > > off-topic or asks something really trivial, nor will I send nasty notes > to > > > people who post jobs here. Its not worth it and doesn't help in any > case. > > > But now and then I think its worthwhile to point out that this list is > > > only as useful as we make it. > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Ken Boettger wrote: > > > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > > > I am not certain I agree with this precept. It is a controversial one > > and > > > a common one, I know. But I wonder if it is an appropriate view. I quess > I > > > am a proponent of the "there is no stupid or silly questions" and that > > > forums are a place of learning. > > > > > > > > In addition, I have been in IT for 15 years and work with many > languages > > > and tools. It is very hard to keep everything straight. Many times I > will > > > go to a list to get an answer to a simple issue that I cannot recall the > > > answer too. Yes, the answer is in the FAQ or in the manuals. And I think > > > they should be encouraged, but not enforced. The reason being that time > is > > > of the essence for many of us. On many occassions (both in the public > and > > > private sector), I will post a question and then proceed with something > > else > > > until a response comes back. From a statistical point of view, it > might > > > take me 5 or 10 minutes to find and read through a FAQ or manual before > I > > > find an anwser (if I can even remember where the manual is - or who > > borrowed > > > it last). Using a forum or list, I maybe type a concise question for 30 > > > seconds, then spend another minute reading the responses - the point > here > > > being that a five fold increase in efficiency is significant from a > > > temporal, financial and pro! > > > fe! > > > > ssional point of view. > > > > > > > > My question is, what is the position here? I believe in democracy and > > > will go either way. But I have on many occasions posted simple questions > > to > > > this list. If such questions are not welcome, I will stop using this > forum > > > in that regard. And maybe we should consider an additional forum that > > > subscribes to a more open view including novice type questions? There > is > > a > > > definitely a need for such a forum. > > > > > > > > -Ken > > > > > > > > Ken Boettger > > > > boettgek@cwu.edu > > > > http://www.cwu.edu/~boettgek > > > > x2944 > > > > > > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Fri Oct 4 09:32:07 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 11:41:42 -0400 From: Don Barclay Subject: Re: Purpose of this list David, Kindly post to this list again so I can verify that my very first person specific mail filter correctly deletes your posting. Thanks, and have a wonderful day! Don David Thorburn Sent by: "Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language" 10/02/2002 07:02 PM Please respond to sqr-users To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net cc: Subject: Re: Purpose of this list To Allen the can't-program, whiney, wimp, name caller... Why don't you shut the $%^## up or say that to my face you whiney liberal yap! I have every right to express my opinion. SQR is a programming language and this forum is for programmers, not touchy feely mealy-mouthed liberals like you. I make my living programming as do others out here who are concerned about the the effect of offshore piracy on our careers. What's the matter, am I getting in the way of your effort to get others to do your work for you! D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allen Cunningham" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 8:04 AM Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > I agree Amy, there's just a handful of these idiots like him who have > destroyed this list. > > ac > > -----Original Message----- > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Christenson, Amy > Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 6:26 AM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > Why don't you run for professional help and in the meantime stop abusing > this forum. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Thorburn [mailto:thorburn@CONL.NET] > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:25 PM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > perfect example of an unfocused liberal PC wishy washy response to a very > serious > situation. > > Why don't you run for President? > > > > D. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christenson, Amy" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 1:22 PM > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > I do; If you need help with PeopleSoft specific questions in the future, > > please join us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peoplesoft-fans . I belong > > to both groups but move back and forth depending on my question. That way > > you can avoid at least a portion of this in the future. > > > > Amy > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Aaron M. Reiff [mailto:aaron.reiff@MAIL.RGSTR.WISC.EDU] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 4:03 PM > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > > > Perhaps we should all move on. All points seems to have been expressed, > > aired and otherwise worn-out. > > > > Does anyone have anything productive and non-threatening to say regarding > > this issue before we return to the business at hand? > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Allen Cunningham > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:37 PM > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > > > Chris - I certainly don't appreciate being lectured and scolded by you, > and > > your patronizing little suggestion to take a PeopleTools class. If your > > having a bad day, find a better way to deal with it than venting on this > > board. This was posted late Fri afternoon, it certainly didn't generate a > > lot of 'noise' that you say you are so worried about. If you don't like a > > posting, ignore it. > > > > ac > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of Chris Bennett > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 4:15 PM > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > > > > > Ken, > > > > That's an interesting question. Just for clarification let me point out > > that my primary concern was the potential trouble I foresaw Allen getting > > into if he tries to accomplish his goals by getting "step by step" > > instructions from this list. I thought it was a very valid and hopefully > > helpful answer to suggest that a class might be in his best interest. > > > > However, it is true that I was also concerned about the signal/noise ratio > > of this list, and I took the opportunity to also suggest that perhaps not > > everyone on the list would like to read a question and answer about basic > > PeopleTools (please note, however, that even after I said his post was > > off-topic and that he would be better served by taking a class, that I > > still answered the question). > > > > Anyway, to attempt to answer your question... > > > > According the the mailing list "hints and guidelines" > > (http://www.sqrug.org/sqr-users/sqr-users-hints.html), the only sections > > that directly refer to "etiquette" are the following: > > > > 1) "keep in mind that over 500 people will receive your message, and that > > it will appear in the list archives. Try to keep your messages on-topic > > and relatively short. Consider sending your message directly to particular > > people if it won't interest many of the list's subscribers." > > > > 2) "Please do not post job announcements on the sqr-users list, but use > > the sqr-jobs list instead. (See Related Mailing Lists for more information > > on this list.) A large number of sqr-users subscribers do not want to > > receive job announcements (for various reasons) and such posts tend to > > cause a lot of disruption of the discussion on the list." > > > > One could also read section 4.2 "Posting a Message" as strongly implying > > that messages posted here should relate specifically to SQR. > > > > Aside from this, I don't know what the "position" here is any more than > > you do (and as I'll explain below, to some extent it really doesn't > > matter), but I'll offer up my opinions. > > > > I'll start with two assumptions. These may be debatable, but I'll throw > > them out as a starting point: > > > > 1) Most people on this list are (more or less) well paid professionals > > > > 2) If there is too much noise the "gurus" that monitor this list will lose > > interest and leave. > > > > Given these assumptions, I have the following opinions: > > > > I don't want to be used as someone else's gopher for basic reference > > materials, and I suspect that other people on this list would rather not > > be used for that purpose either. While I enjoy helping someone who truly > > has a difficult or unusual problem, doing other people's work for them > > goes beyond the call of duty. Time is, indeed, of the essence for many of > > us, as you say. But why would one person's time be more important than > > mine? > > > > I also rely on this list as a resource to help out with any big problems I > > might run into, so I'm glad there are some very skilled and knowledgeable > > people that monitor this list. I would be really disappointed to see them > > leave because this list degenerated into some sort of off-topic "how to > > program" tutorial group. > > > > This list is not moderated, so it is neither democratic (moderator chosen > > by vote) nor totalitarian (moderator is the list admin, Ray Ontko). > > Anarchy seems more accurate. As such, anyone can really post whatever > > they want, and we each make our own decision as to whether it is worth > > sticking around based on our own needs. We can all decide as a group that > > job posting are taboo, but we know full well that some people will still > > post them anyway. > > > > So all I can say is this: I would prefer that we stay generally on topic. > > And I would prefer that we not be deluged with trivial questions that are > > asked just to save someone else's time at the expense of my time. But > > these are my preferences based on my needs. If you or anyone else feels > > that it would be a good idea to encourage people to post off-topic or > > trivial questions, just consider what long-term utility you will be > > getting from this list. > > > > There's probably no point to debating this. Its not as if any decision > > would be binding, and this really could just be considered more "noise" > > on the list anyway. Each person can make up their own mind and do as they > > wish. Personally, I'm not going to whine about every post that goes > > off-topic or asks something really trivial, nor will I send nasty notes to > > people who post jobs here. Its not worth it and doesn't help in any case. > > But now and then I think its worthwhile to point out that this list is > > only as useful as we make it. > > > > Chris > > > > On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Ken Boettger wrote: > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > I am not certain I agree with this precept. It is a controversial one > and > > a common one, I know. But I wonder if it is an appropriate view. I quess I > > am a proponent of the "there is no stupid or silly questions" and that > > forums are a place of learning. > > > > > > In addition, I have been in IT for 15 years and work with many languages > > and tools. It is very hard to keep everything straight. Many times I will > > go to a list to get an answer to a simple issue that I cannot recall the > > answer too. Yes, the answer is in the FAQ or in the manuals. And I think > > they should be encouraged, but not enforced. The reason being that time is > > of the essence for many of us. On many occassions (both in the public and > > private sector), I will post a question and then proceed with something > else > > until a response comes back. From a statistical point of view, it might > > take me 5 or 10 minutes to find and read through a FAQ or manual before I > > find an anwser (if I can even remember where the manual is - or who > borrowed > > it last). Using a forum or list, I maybe type a concise question for 30 > > seconds, then spend another minute reading the responses - the point here > > being that a five fold increase in efficiency is significant from a > > temporal, financial and pro! > > fe! > > > ssional point of view. > > > > > > My question is, what is the position here? I believe in democracy and > > will go either way. But I have on many occasions posted simple questions > to > > this list. If such questions are not welcome, I will stop using this forum > > in that regard. And maybe we should consider an additional forum that > > subscribes to a more open view including novice type questions? There is > a > > definitely a need for such a forum. > > > > > > -Ken > > > > > > Ken Boettger > > > boettgek@cwu.edu > > > http://www.cwu.edu/~boettgek > > > x2944 > > > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Fri Oct 4 11:10:47 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 12:45:23 -0300 From: Peter Clark Subject: Re: Purpose of this list >>> Ray Ontko 2002/10/04 11:28:49 am >>> >Clearly, Dave Thornburn feels his job security is threatened by >competition from oversees, and as others have mentioned, there may >be some political issues that are worthy of discussion. But does that warrant his abusive, and now mysogynistic, behaviour? Surely a topic of this importance would have much more impact among the readership were it not for Mr. Thorburn's abusive manner. His conduct brings discredit to his "cause". The discussion of the issue is acceptable. Mr. Thorburn's conduct is not. From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Fri Oct 4 13:01:53 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 12:42:31 -0500 From: Ray Ontko Subject: Re: Purpose of this list Peter, On Fri, Oct 04, 2002 at 12:45:23PM -0300, Peter Clark wrote: > >>> Ray Ontko 2002/10/04 11:28:49 am >>> > >Clearly, Dave Thorburn feels his job security is threatened by > >competition from oversees, and as others have mentioned, there may > >be some political issues that are worthy of discussion. > > But does that warrant his abusive, and now mysogynistic, behaviour? Of course not. > Surely a topic of this importance would have much more impact > among the readership were it not for Mr. Thorburn's abusive > manner. His conduct brings discredit to his "cause". I agree. > The discussion of the issue is acceptable. Mr. Thorburn's conduct is not. Again, I agree. Keep in mind that Dave Thorburn is not the only person who engaged in name-calling and other unprofessional conduct. We need to be clear that anyone who uses abusive language, or displays contempt or disrespect in a post or a reply is disruptive to the list. It doesn't matter who throws the first punch; it's still a brawl. I continue to ask for everyone's cooperation to make this listserv useful to and supportive of the SQR community. Thank you for YOUR help. Ray ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ray Ontko rayo@ontko.com Phone 1.765.935.4283 Fax 1.765.962.9788 Ray Ontko & Co. Software Consulting Services http://www.ontko.com/ From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Fri Oct 4 17:38:02 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 15:12:40 -0700 From: David Thorburn Subject: Re: Purpose of this list Ray, I have great appreciation for this list. I do not consider defending myself to be abuse. Let's just let this thread wind down as it already has. I know those who take their careers seriously agree with me. The posers and crybabies were offended, but they are usually offended by everyone who dares to have an opinion. Regards, D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Ontko" To: Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 10:42 AM Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > Peter, > > On Fri, Oct 04, 2002 at 12:45:23PM -0300, Peter Clark wrote: > > >>> Ray Ontko 2002/10/04 11:28:49 am >>> > > >Clearly, Dave Thorburn feels his job security is threatened by > > >competition from oversees, and as others have mentioned, there may > > >be some political issues that are worthy of discussion. > > > > But does that warrant his abusive, and now mysogynistic, behaviour? > > Of course not. > > > Surely a topic of this importance would have much more impact > > among the readership were it not for Mr. Thorburn's abusive > > manner. His conduct brings discredit to his "cause". > > I agree. > > > The discussion of the issue is acceptable. Mr. Thorburn's conduct is not. > > Again, I agree. Keep in mind that Dave Thorburn is not the only > person who engaged in name-calling and other unprofessional conduct. > > We need to be clear that anyone who uses abusive language, or displays > contempt or disrespect in a post or a reply is disruptive to the list. > It doesn't matter who throws the first punch; it's still a brawl. > > I continue to ask for everyone's cooperation to make this listserv > useful to and supportive of the SQR community. > > Thank you for YOUR help. > > Ray > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ray Ontko rayo@ontko.com Phone 1.765.935.4283 Fax 1.765.962.9788 > Ray Ontko & Co. Software Consulting Services http://www.ontko.com/ From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Fri Oct 4 17:38:02 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 15:15:12 -0700 From: David Thorburn Subject: Re: Purpose of this list Peter, Please quit being a crybaby. Those who take their careers seriously agree with me. The posers, leeches, and crybabies like you; I could care less about. D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Clark" To: Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 8:45 AM Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > >>> Ray Ontko 2002/10/04 11:28:49 am >>> > >Clearly, Dave Thornburn feels his job security is threatened by > >competition from oversees, and as others have mentioned, there may > >be some political issues that are worthy of discussion. > > But does that warrant his abusive, and now mysogynistic, behaviour? > > Surely a topic of this importance would have much more impact among the readership were it not for Mr. Thorburn's abusive manner. His conduct brings discredit to his "cause". > > The discussion of the issue is acceptable. Mr. Thorburn's conduct is not. > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Tue Oct 1 17:36:16 2002 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 17:54:12 -0400 From: Geek Unlimited Subject: right justify Some of the team leaders at my current gig are meticulous about the look of the reports. The lot of us a wrestling with how to do right justification with an Arial font (both required). The best I have come up with so far is to print the last letter first, in the designated column, and then print right to left. While this does successfully right justify, the spacing looks awful. Any ideas? Andrew :) From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Tue Oct 1 17:37:53 2002 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:17:17 -0400 From: Rick_Creel@AONCONS.COM Subject: Re: right justify How about checking the length of the output data item ... then LEFT pad it with spaces until you get the desired length ... then print the padded result Not sure how that will work with a proportional font, but its worth a try :=) |--------+-------------------------------> | | Geek Unlimited | | | | | | | | | 10/01/2002 05:54 PM | | | Please respond to | | | sqr-users | | | | |--------+-------------------------------> >--------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net | | cc: (bcc: Rick Creel/IT/Aon Consulting) | | Subject: right justify | >--------------------------------------------------------| Some of the team leaders at my current gig are meticulous about the look of the reports. The lot of us a wrestling with how to do right justification with an Arial font (both required). The best I have come up with so far is to print the last letter first, in the designated column, and then print right to left. While this does successfully right justify, the spacing looks awful. Any ideas? Andrew :) From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Tue Oct 1 18:18:22 2002 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:45:24 -0400 From: Geek Unlimited Subject: right justify - expounded I guess I could have been clearer about what I've tried that didn't work, in addition to what I tried that almost worked. The following I could not get to work. Subtracting the string length from (#_sqr-max-columns - 1) and then left padding the string with that many spaces. Subtracting the string length from (#_sqr-max-columns - 1), printing that many spaces, and then printing the string right after it. Subtracting the string length from (#_sqr-max-columns - 1) and then creating an edit mask with the many "B"s, plus enough "X"s for the string itself. Using the R edit mask to reverse the string with right justification, then ltrim the string, then reverse it back. Andrew :) From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Tue Oct 1 19:06:36 2002 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 19:56:45 -0400 From: Chris Bennett Subject: Re: right justify - expounded The following is a relevant message that Ray Ontko posted on this exact question before (see the archives): "Steve, The short answer is "there's no easy way". SQR doesn't "know" anything about the widths of characters in proportional fonts, so it doesn't support centering, wrapping, or right justifying which requires knowledge of individual character widths. For more background on the topic, search the archives for "proportional font" at: http://www.sqrug.com/sqr-users/ If you MUST do it, there are a few routines that I and others have written that do some of what you want (wrapping and truncation, in particular). You may be able to adapt them. One is on the library pages at www.sqrug.com, the other is at: http://www.ontko.com/sqr/hp.html Ray" On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Geek Unlimited wrote: > I guess I could have been clearer about what > I've tried that didn't work, in addition to > what I tried that almost worked. > > The following I could not get to work. > > Subtracting the string length from > (#_sqr-max-columns - 1) and then left padding the > string with that many spaces. > > Subtracting the string length from > (#_sqr-max-columns - 1), printing that many spaces, and then printing the > string right > after it. > > Subtracting the string length from > (#_sqr-max-columns - 1) and then creating an > edit mask with the many "B"s, plus enough > "X"s for the string itself. > > Using the R edit mask to reverse the string with > right justification, then ltrim the string, then > reverse it back. > > Andrew :) > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Tue Oct 1 22:38:47 2002 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 20:15:40 -0700 From: David Thorburn Subject: An information pirate attempts to develop opportunities! Just look at this SPAM I received! To the list: This SPAM from an offshore outsourcing pirate, Mr. Reddy, arrived in my email today. I just wanted to send this to the list, and selected media to make sure that other American IT Professionals are aware that people like this, who represent offshore development centers full of hordes of slaves, working in countries where copyright and patent laws are not respected, and, where most toil in slave programming mills for little more than their kids make rolling cigarettes are after your jobs and career. Their aim is to put us out of business and replace us with their IT slaves. At least the imported H1B's spend money and pay taxes while they are here! H1B's are people, but foreign outsourcers are pirates! Write your elected officials and demand that they put a stop to offshore outsourcing now! Do you want your credit, personnel, financial, and medical information being programmed, stored, copied, communicated, and manipulated by these pirates and by their slaves in foreign countries? How can we expect our governments laws, which are meant to protect us, to possibly be enforced in these foreign counties known to be havens for espionage and piracy? The time to act is now. Be watchful and aware of the threat to your career, your credit rating, and your privacy. Regards, David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elite Outsource International, Inc" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:27 PM Subject: Introducing - Elite Outsource International, Inc > Hi, > > This is Srinivas Reddy from Elite Outsource International, Inc. I am writing > this letter to introduce myself and Elite's services of Software > Development, > Staff Augmentation (Consulting & Staffing), Project Management > (On Site & Off Shore) and outsourcing services, that we offer in the > Information Technology Industry. > > Please note that, I am well aware of the current market situation and my > goal is to better utilize this quiet time to get to know each other and > establish a mutual business understanding, that can be fruitful and > beneficial to both our firms, towards your any and all future needs in the > IT Discipline. > > I take this opportunity to bring to your attention of Elite Outsource > International, Inc. A company that provides technology-driven services > dedicated to helping its customers deploy, maximize, and manage Information > Systems Solutions. Elite Outsource International, Inc is one of America's > fastest growing and dependable Private Company. Learn more about Elite > Outsource International at www.eliteoutsource.com. > > I look forward to establishing a mutually beneficial relation between us. I > request you to contact me anytime without hesitation for any and all needs > you come across in IT Industry. > > Sincerely, > > > Srinivas Reddy > General Manager. > > Elite Outsource International, Inc > Reinforcing Excellence > > 3-14, Fox Run Drive, > Plainsboro, > New Jersey - 08536 > www.eliteoutsource.com > > Phone: 609-716-7604 > Fax: 609-716-4911 > > > Under Bill s.1618 Title III passed by the 105th U.S.Congress this mail > cannot be considered > Spam as long as we include contact information and a remove link for removal > from our mailing > list. To be removed from our mailing list reply to > mailto:reddys@eliteoutsource.com?Subject=Remove > with 'REMOVE' in the subject heading and your email address in the body. > Include complete address > and/or domain/aliases to be removed. If you still get the mails, please call > us at the numbers given > above. > > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 06:52:30 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 04:29:14 -0700 From: Sam Spritzer Subject: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop opportunities! Generally speaking, this does not belong here but I think some degree of flexibility should be allowed to post off topic discussions which can have a dramatic impact on our ability to be an SQRer. For those of you who are not interested, please stop here and delete this. I have added OFF-TOPIC to the subject line for this reason. I agree with David. The proliferation of off-shore outsourcing has exploded over the last year. My own personal experience can testify to that both from an employed and unemployed perspective. This article seems to best address the issue: http://www.bayarea.com/mld/siliconvalley/4154071.htm I am not sure if the feds are doing anything but keep in mind, the offshore companies have a headstart - they have formed American subsidiaries which essentially serve as nothing more than conduits to the actual transaction. I have nothing against those who work for offshore companies and I have worked alongside several. The biggest barrier, of course, is language and culture. My only concern is my own livelihood as an SQRer. But, I also think it is a two-edged sword. Given today's economy and changing times, I think contracted rates of $75 or more (contracting firms are excluded) is considered excessive. The laws of supply and demand require we adjust accordingly. Unfortunately, many folks simply fail to see that hence, they are priced out of the market. At this point, I am not doing anything about it. Maybe I should...or maybe this discussion can evolve into a more positive voice which will give more power to deal with the issue. Who knows...lets see where this leads. Regards, Sam --- David Thorburn wrote: > To the list: > > This SPAM from an offshore outsourcing pirate, Mr. Reddy, arrived in my > email today. > > I just wanted to send this to the list, and selected media to make sure that > other > American IT Professionals are aware that people like this, who represent > offshore > development centers full of hordes of slaves, working in countries where > copyright and > patent laws are not respected, and, where most toil in slave programming > mills for > little more than their kids make rolling cigarettes are after your jobs and > career. > > Their aim is to put us out of business and replace us with their IT slaves. > > At least the imported H1B's spend money and pay taxes while they are here! > > H1B's are people, but foreign outsourcers are pirates! > > Write your elected officials and demand that they put a stop to offshore > outsourcing now! > > Do you want your credit, personnel, financial, and medical information being > programmed, stored, > copied, communicated, and manipulated by these pirates and by their slaves > in foreign countries? > > How can we expect our governments laws, which are meant to protect us, to > possibly > be enforced in these foreign counties known to be havens for espionage and > piracy? > > The time to act is now. > > Be watchful and aware of the threat to your career, your credit rating, and > your privacy. > > Regards, > > David > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Elite Outsource International, Inc" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:27 PM > Subject: Introducing - Elite Outsource International, Inc > > > > Hi, > > > > This is Srinivas Reddy from Elite Outsource International, Inc. I am > writing > > this letter to introduce myself and Elite's services of Software > > Development, > > Staff Augmentation (Consulting & Staffing), Project Management > > (On Site & Off Shore) and outsourcing services, that we offer in the > > Information Technology Industry. > > > > Please note that, I am well aware of the current market situation and my > > goal is to better utilize this quiet time to get to know each other and > > establish a mutual business understanding, that can be fruitful and > > beneficial to both our firms, towards your any and all future needs in the > > IT Discipline. > > > > I take this opportunity to bring to your attention of Elite Outsource > > International, Inc. A company that provides technology-driven services > > dedicated to helping its customers deploy, maximize, and manage > Information > > Systems Solutions. Elite Outsource International, Inc is one of America's > > fastest growing and dependable Private Company. Learn more about Elite > > Outsource International at www.eliteoutsource.com. > > > > I look forward to establishing a mutually beneficial relation between us. > I > > request you to contact me anytime without hesitation for any and all needs > > you come across in IT Industry. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > Srinivas Reddy > > General Manager. > > > > Elite Outsource International, Inc > > Reinforcing Excellence > > > > 3-14, Fox Run Drive, > > Plainsboro, > > New Jersey - 08536 > > www.eliteoutsource.com > > > > Phone: 609-716-7604 > > Fax: 609-716-4911 > > > > > > Under Bill s.1618 Title III passed by the 105th U.S.Congress this mail > > cannot be considered > > Spam as long as we include contact information and a remove link for > removal > > from our mailing > > list. To be removed from our mailing list reply to > > mailto:reddys@eliteoutsource.com?Subject=Remove > > with 'REMOVE' in the subject heading and your email address in the body. > > Include complete address > > and/or domain/aliases to be removed. If you still get the mails, please > call > > us at the numbers given > > above. > > > > ===== ************************************************************ "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find nothing." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 11:31:53 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:02:20 -0700 From: Ken Boettger Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop opportunities! Honeywell? Outsourcing American jobs too??? Thank you for making me aware of that. I will be writing them a letter and talking to my congressman in regards to them too. -Ken >>> teknogeek9@YAHOO.com 10/02/02 05:40AM >>> Paul, I am not sure if you understand the content of my message. My beef is with Corporate America more than the individual H1Bers themselves. Corporate America is more to the blame than anything else. The H1B program was established to address the issue of shortages of qualified programmers. But, the H1B process is cumbersome and a royal pain in the butt to administer. Hence, instead of being encumbered with that burden, they pass it off to the American "subsidiaries" of offshore outsourcing companies. These companies are no different than the local personnel firm that serves as an "employer of record" for many independent contractors. To me, using offshore companies to get labor, cheap or not, is a way of circumventing the H1B process and everything behind it. If Honeywell, or any other American corporation wants to hire someone from another country, good for them! I'll applaud that effort because it levels the playing field. BUT, I will NOT endorse nor tolerate any efforts to exploit loopholes in a process that was designed to be fair and equitable to all. While it may not be illegal, its unethical, immoral and certainly goes against the patriotism of ones own country. For those who take advantage of loopholes in the process, please keep in mind Murphy's law..."what goes up, must come down". Sam --- "O'riordan, Paul (EI05)" wrote: > I'm not too sure that I like the tone of this string. It could be almost > construed as imflammatory and racial and cultural predjudice. > 1. you are assuming that everyone on the list is American or working there > and everyone else is irrelevant. How nice of you to accept the H1Bs as > people. > 2. You are also forgetting that these Outsourcing companies have in the main > been set up by Corporate America as a means of expanding the Global economy > and yes - getting cheaper labour. > 3. Outsourcing occurs in almost every country in the world so I would like > you to expand on how these places are all known to be Havens of espionage > and piracy? > I work for a multinational US based company with plants in over 100 > countries where yes - they do have the audacity to employ local talent - > and we even in Ireland are a lot cheaper than the US alternative but we also > are losing out to the rise in "competition" from Asia - within our own > company, but welcome to planet earth. You wanted capitalism and all of the > world markets opened up? Well the traffic goes both ways and you have to > accept it. We actually market ourselves as supplying quality product as > programmers, which is in effect cheaper in the long run to use, compared to > using cheaper, mass-produced work which needs constant attention, over runs > budget and deadlines and then fails to work. $80 p/hour for 8 hours is > cheaper than $40 and hour for something that takes twice as long to develop, > doesn't work, is not what the customer wanted and in the end, people like us > get the contract to "fix" the bugs and make it work. > I know the point you are making but please think a little bit less > parochially - especially when using a global mailing list. > Regards, > Paul > > > Honeywell > > Paul O'Riordan Honeywell Application Services > Application Developer Industrial Park, Cork Road > PeopleSoft Applications, Waterford Ireland > > +353-51-309856 > Direct > +353-51-309821 Fax > +353-87-9083244 Mobile > mailto:Paul.O'Riordan@honeywell.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sam Spritzer [mailto:teknogeek9@YAHOO.COM] > Sent: 02 October 2002 12:29 > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop > opportunities! > > > Generally speaking, this does not belong here but I think some degree of > flexibility should be allowed to post off topic discussions which can have a > dramatic impact on our ability to be an SQRer. For those of you who are not > interested, please stop here and delete this. I have added OFF-TOPIC to the > subject line for this reason. > > I agree with David. The proliferation of off-shore outsourcing has exploded > over the last year. My own personal experience can testify to that both > from > an employed and unemployed perspective. This article seems to best address > the > issue: > http://www.bayarea.com/mld/siliconvalley/4154071.htm > > I am not sure if the feds are doing anything but keep in mind, the offshore > companies have a headstart - they have formed American subsidiaries which > essentially serve as nothing more than conduits to the actual transaction. > > I have nothing against those who work for offshore companies and I have > worked > alongside several. The biggest barrier, of course, is language and culture. > My only concern is my own livelihood as an SQRer. But, I also think it is a > two-edged sword. Given today's economy and changing times, I think > contracted > rates of $75 or more (contracting firms are excluded) is considered > excessive. > The laws of supply and demand require we adjust accordingly. Unfortunately, > many folks simply fail to see that hence, they are priced out of the market. > > At this point, I am not doing anything about it. Maybe I should...or maybe > this discussion can evolve into a more positive voice which will give more > power to deal with the issue. Who knows...lets see where this leads. > > Regards, > Sam > > > --- David Thorburn wrote: > > To the list: > > > > This SPAM from an offshore outsourcing pirate, Mr. Reddy, arrived in my > > email today. > > > > I just wanted to send this to the list, and selected media to make sure > that > > other > > American IT Professionals are aware that people like this, who represent > > offshore > > development centers full of hordes of slaves, working in countries where > > copyright and > > patent laws are not respected, and, where most toil in slave programming > > mills for > > little more than their kids make rolling cigarettes are after your jobs > and > > career. > > > > Their aim is to put us out of business and replace us with their IT > slaves. > > > > At least the imported H1B's spend money and pay taxes while they are here! > > > > H1B's are people, but foreign outsourcers are pirates! > > > > Write your elected officials and demand that they put a stop to offshore > > outsourcing now! > > > > Do you want your credit, personnel, financial, and medical information > being > > programmed, stored, > > copied, communicated, and manipulated by these pirates and by their slaves > > in foreign countries? > > > > How can we expect our governments laws, which are meant to protect us, to > > possibly > > be enforced in these foreign counties known to be havens for espionage and > > piracy? > > > > The time to act is now. > > > > Be watchful and aware of the threat to your career, your credit rating, > and > > your privacy. > > > > Regards, > > > > David > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Elite Outsource International, Inc" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:27 PM > > Subject: Introducing - Elite Outsource International, Inc > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > This is Srinivas Reddy from Elite Outsource International, Inc. I am > > writing > > > this letter to introduce myself and Elite's services of Software > > > Development, > > > Staff Augmentation (Consulting & Staffing), Project Management > > > (On Site & Off Shore) and outsourcing services, that we offer in the > > > Information Technology Industry. > > > > > > Please note that, I am well aware of the current market situation and my > > > goal is to better utilize this quiet time to get to know each other and > > > establish a mutual business understanding, that can be fruitful and > > > beneficial to both our firms, towards your any and all future needs in > the > > > IT Discipline. > > > > > > I take this opportunity to bring to your attention of Elite Outsource > > > International, Inc. A company that provides technology-driven services > > > dedicated to helping its customers deploy, maximize, and manage > > Information > > > Systems Solutions. Elite Outsource International, Inc is one of > America's > > > fastest growing and dependable Private Company. Learn more about Elite > > > Outsource International at www.eliteoutsource.com. > > > > > > I look forward to establishing a mutually beneficial relation between > us. > > I > > > request you to contact me anytime without hesitation for any and all > needs > > > you come across in IT Industry. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > Srinivas Reddy > > > General Manager. > > > > > > Elite Outsource International, Inc > > > Reinforcing Excellence > > > > > > 3-14, Fox Run Drive, > > > Plainsboro, > > > New Jersey - 08536 > > > www.eliteoutsource.com > > > > > > Phone: 609-716-7604 > > > Fax: 609-716-4911 > > > > > > > > > Under Bill s.1618 Title III passed by the 105th U.S.Congress this mail > > > cannot be considered > > > Spam as long as we include contact information and a remove link for > > removal > > > from our mailing > > > list. To be removed from our mailing list reply to > > > mailto:reddys@eliteoutsource.com?Subject=Remove > > > with 'REMOVE' in the subject heading and your email address in the body. > > > Include complete address > > > and/or domain/aliases to be removed. If you still get the mails, please > > call > > > us at the numbers given > > > above. > > > > > > > > > ===== > ************************************************************ > "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find > nothing." > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com ===== ************************************************************ "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find nothing." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 11:42:47 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:16:03 -0700 From: Sam Spritzer Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop opportunities! Ken, Honeywell is just the tip of the iceberg. Who knows who else is doing it. What we really need is a special interest group powerful enough to make an impact. Heck, I bet the AFL-CIO would certainly endorse and help one! Sam --- Ken Boettger wrote: > Honeywell? Outsourcing American jobs too??? > > Thank you for making me aware of that. I will be writing them a letter and > talking to my congressman in regards to them too. > > -Ken > > >>> teknogeek9@YAHOO.com 10/02/02 05:40AM >>> > Paul, > I am not sure if you understand the content of my message. My beef is with > Corporate America more than the individual H1Bers themselves. Corporate > America is more to the blame than anything else. The H1B program was > established to address the issue of shortages of qualified programmers. But, > the H1B process is cumbersome and a royal pain in the butt to administer. > Hence, instead of being encumbered with that burden, they pass it off to the > American "subsidiaries" of offshore outsourcing companies. These companies > are > no different than the local personnel firm that serves as an "employer of > record" for many independent contractors. To me, using offshore companies to > get labor, cheap or not, is a way of circumventing the H1B process and > everything behind it. > > If Honeywell, or any other American corporation wants to hire someone from > another country, good for them! I'll applaud that effort because it levels > the > playing field. BUT, I will NOT endorse nor tolerate any efforts to exploit > loopholes in a process that was designed to be fair and equitable to all. > While it may not be illegal, its unethical, immoral and certainly goes > against > the patriotism of ones own country. For those who take advantage of > loopholes > in the process, please keep in mind Murphy's law..."what goes up, must come > down". > > Sam > > --- "O'riordan, Paul (EI05)" wrote: > > I'm not too sure that I like the tone of this string. It could be almost > > construed as imflammatory and racial and cultural predjudice. > > 1. you are assuming that everyone on the list is American or working there > > and everyone else is irrelevant. How nice of you to accept the H1Bs as > > people. > > 2. You are also forgetting that these Outsourcing companies have in the > main > > been set up by Corporate America as a means of expanding the Global economy > > and yes - getting cheaper labour. > > 3. Outsourcing occurs in almost every country in the world so I would like > > you to expand on how these places are all known to be Havens of espionage > > and piracy? > > I work for a multinational US based company with plants in over 100 > > countries where yes - they do have the audacity to employ local talent - > > and we even in Ireland are a lot cheaper than the US alternative but we > also > > are losing out to the rise in "competition" from Asia - within our own > > company, but welcome to planet earth. You wanted capitalism and all of the > > world markets opened up? Well the traffic goes both ways and you have to > > accept it. We actually market ourselves as supplying quality product as > > programmers, which is in effect cheaper in the long run to use, compared to > > using cheaper, mass-produced work which needs constant attention, over runs > > budget and deadlines and then fails to work. $80 p/hour for 8 hours is > > cheaper than $40 and hour for something that takes twice as long to > develop, > > doesn't work, is not what the customer wanted and in the end, people like > us > > get the contract to "fix" the bugs and make it work. > > I know the point you are making but please think a little bit less > > parochially - especially when using a global mailing list. > > Regards, > > Paul > > > > > > Honeywell > > > > Paul O'Riordan Honeywell Application Services > > Application Developer Industrial Park, Cork Road > > PeopleSoft Applications, Waterford Ireland > > > > +353-51-309856 > > Direct > > +353-51-309821 Fax > > +353-87-9083244 Mobile > > mailto:Paul.O'Riordan@honeywell.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sam Spritzer [mailto:teknogeek9@YAHOO.COM] > > Sent: 02 October 2002 12:29 > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > Subject: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop > > opportunities! > > > > > > Generally speaking, this does not belong here but I think some degree of > > flexibility should be allowed to post off topic discussions which can have > a > > dramatic impact on our ability to be an SQRer. For those of you who are > not > > interested, please stop here and delete this. I have added OFF-TOPIC to > the > > subject line for this reason. > > > > I agree with David. The proliferation of off-shore outsourcing has > exploded > > over the last year. My own personal experience can testify to that both > > from > > an employed and unemployed perspective. This article seems to best address > > the > > issue: > > http://www.bayarea.com/mld/siliconvalley/4154071.htm > > > > I am not sure if the feds are doing anything but keep in mind, the offshore > > companies have a headstart - they have formed American subsidiaries which > > essentially serve as nothing more than conduits to the actual transaction. > > > > I have nothing against those who work for offshore companies and I have > > worked > > alongside several. The biggest barrier, of course, is language and > culture. > > My only concern is my own livelihood as an SQRer. But, I also think it is > a > > two-edged sword. Given today's economy and changing times, I think > > contracted > > rates of $75 or more (contracting firms are excluded) is considered > > excessive. > > The laws of supply and demand require we adjust accordingly. > Unfortunately, > > many folks simply fail to see that hence, they are priced out of the > market. > > > > At this point, I am not doing anything about it. Maybe I should...or maybe > > this discussion can evolve into a more positive voice which will give more > > power to deal with the issue. Who knows...lets see where this leads. > > > > Regards, > > Sam > > > > > > --- David Thorburn wrote: > > > To the list: > > > > > > This SPAM from an offshore outsourcing pirate, Mr. Reddy, arrived in my > > > email today. > > > > > > I just wanted to send this to the list, and selected media to make sure > > that > > > other > > > American IT Professionals are aware that people like this, who represent > > > offshore > > > development centers full of hordes of slaves, working in countries where > > > copyright and > > > patent laws are not respected, and, where most toil in slave programming > > > mills for > > > little more than their kids make rolling cigarettes are after your jobs > > and > > > career. > > > > > > Their aim is to put us out of business and replace us with their IT > > slaves. > > > > > > At least the imported H1B's spend money and pay taxes while they are > here! > > > > > > H1B's are people, but foreign outsourcers are pirates! > > > > > > Write your elected officials and demand that they put a stop to offshore > > > outsourcing now! > > > > > > Do you want your credit, personnel, financial, and medical information > > being > > > programmed, stored, > > > copied, communicated, and manipulated by these pirates and by their > slaves > > > in foreign countries? > > > > > > How can we expect our governments laws, which are meant to protect us, to > > > possibly > > > be enforced in these foreign counties known to be havens for espionage > and > > > piracy? > > > > > > The time to act is now. > > > > > > Be watchful and aware of the threat to your career, your credit rating, > > and > > > your privacy. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > David > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Elite Outsource International, Inc" > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:27 PM > > > Subject: Introducing - Elite Outsource International, Inc > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > This is Srinivas Reddy from Elite Outsource International, Inc. I am > > > writing > > > > this letter to introduce myself and Elite's services of Software > > > > Development, > > > > Staff Augmentation (Consulting & Staffing), Project Management > > > > (On Site & Off Shore) and outsourcing services, that we offer in the > > > > Information Technology Industry. > > > > > > > > Please note that, I am well aware of the current market situation and > my > > > > goal is to better utilize this quiet time to get to know each other and > > > > establish a mutual business understanding, that can be fruitful and > > > > beneficial to both our firms, towards your any and all future needs in > > the > > > > IT Discipline. > > > > > > > > I take this opportunity to bring to your attention of Elite Outsource > > > > International, Inc. A company that provides technology-driven services > > > > dedicated to helping its customers deploy, maximize, and manage > > > Information > > > > Systems Solutions. Elite Outsource International, Inc is one of > > America's > > > > fastest growing and dependable Private Company. Learn more about Elite > > > > Outsource International at www.eliteoutsource.com. > > > > > > > > I look forward to establishing a mutually beneficial relation between > > us. > > > I > > > > request you to contact me anytime without hesitation for any and all > > needs > > > > you come across in IT Industry. > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > Srinivas Reddy > > > > General Manager. > > > > > > > > Elite Outsource International, Inc > > > > Reinforcing Excellence > > > > > > > > 3-14, Fox Run Drive, > > > > Plainsboro, > > > > New Jersey - 08536 > > > > www.eliteoutsource.com > > > > > > > > Phone: 609-716-7604 > > > > Fax: 609-716-4911 > > > > > > > > > > > > Under Bill s.1618 Title III passed by the 105th U.S.Congress this mail > > > > cannot be considered > > > > Spam as long as we include contact information and a remove link for > > > removal > > > > from our mailing > > > > list. To be removed from our mailing list reply to > > > > mailto:reddys@eliteoutsource.com?Subject=Remove > > > > with 'REMOVE' in the subject heading and your email address in the > body. > > > > Include complete address > > > > and/or domain/aliases to be removed. If you still get the mails, please > > > call > > > > us at the numbers given > > > > above. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > ************************************************************ > > "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find > > nothing." > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > > ===== > ************************************************************ > "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find > nothing." > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com ===== ************************************************************ "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find nothing." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 06:08:52 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:34:57 +0100 From: "Gentry, Andrew (SAIC)" Subject: Trying to run a copy / rename command from Windows NT Scheduled T ask Hi, I am trying to run a simple piece of SQR which basically takes a file copies it to a different directory and renames it with a current date extension. I have written the code and I can run it successfully either directly in Brio Report Builder or if I compile it and run it from an icon which runs a cmd file which uses SQRWT. The problem I have is when I try to run the same cmd file which I use via the icon from the windows 2000 scheduler. It runs the code, but every time I try to use call system to go off and run 'copy' or 'rename' it never seems to do it and then carries on with the rest of the code. I realise it is probably starting up another window / session and then loses control. I have tried different combinations like let $command_string = 'C:\WINNT\system32\CMD /c ' || 'xcopy ' || $NEW_AP_FN || ' ' || $FP || '\history' || ' > ' || $acopyaplog call system using $command_string #status wait let $command_string = 'C:\WINNT\system32\CMD /c ' || 'ren ' || $FP || '\history\apfile' || ' ' || $fname3 || ' >> ' || $acopyaplog call system using $command_string6 #status wait where I have defined the variable names earlier in the program and have also tried adding start /wait commands after the cmd /c part, but none of these seem to work when using the scheduler. Can anyone help ? Many thanks, Andy. From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 06:29:48 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 07:03:41 -0400 From: Buddy Sandridge Subject: Re: Trying to run a copy / rename command from Windows NT Scheduled T ask At 06:34 AM 10/2/2002, you wrote: >Hi, >The problem I have is when I try to run the same cmd file which I use via >the icon from the windows 2000 scheduler. It runs the code, but every time I >try to use call system to go off and run 'copy' or 'rename' it never seems >to do it and then carries on with the rest of the code. I realise it is >probably starting up another window / session and then loses control. I have observed very odd behavior similar to this due to the fact that the scheduler process runs as a SYSTEM process, not as a user process. Obviously, this is even more appropriate if network resources are needed. Check the service and see if you change it to having a login account instead of using system helps. Good luck! Buddy From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 06:43:04 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:19:04 +0100 From: "Gentry, Andrew (SAIC)" Subject: Re: Trying to run a copy / rename command from Windows NT Schedul ed T ask This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01C26A05.83E1A209 Content-Type: text/plain Buddy, I have tried this but unfortunately it seems as though it wants to be run by system as in the error message below: Thanks, Andy. -----Original Message----- From: Buddy Sandridge [mailto:mes3@EMCC.NET] Sent: 02 October 2002 12:04 To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Trying to run a copy / rename command from Windows NT Scheduled T ask At 06:34 AM 10/2/2002, you wrote: >Hi, >The problem I have is when I try to run the same cmd file which I use via >the icon from the windows 2000 scheduler. It runs the code, but every time I >try to use call system to go off and run 'copy' or 'rename' it never seems >to do it and then carries on with the rest of the code. I realise it is >probably starting up another window / session and then loses control. I have observed very odd behavior similar to this due to the fact that the scheduler process runs as a SYSTEM process, not as a user process. Obviously, this is even more appropriate if network resources are needed. Check the service and see if you change it to having a login account instead of using system helps. Good luck! 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I'm not too sure that I like the tone of this string. It could be almost construed as imflammatory and racial and cultural predjudice. 1. you are assuming that everyone on the list is American or working there and everyone else is irrelevant. How nice of you to accept the H1Bs as people. 2. You are also forgetting that these Outsourcing companies have in the main been set up by Corporate America as a means of expanding the Global economy and yes - getting cheaper labour. 3. Outsourcing occurs in almost every country in the world so I would like you to expand on how these places are all known to be Havens of espionage and piracy? I work for a multinational US based company with plants in over 100 countries where yes - they do have the audacity to employ local talent - and we even in Ireland are a lot cheaper than the US alternative but we also are losing out to the rise in "competition" from Asia - within our own company, but welcome to planet earth. You wanted capitalism and all of the world markets opened up? Well the traffic goes both ways and you have to accept it. We actually market ourselves as supplying quality product as programmers, which is in effect cheaper in the long run to use, compared to using cheaper, mass-produced work which needs constant attention, over runs budget and deadlines and then fails to work. $80 p/hour for 8 hours is cheaper than $40 and hour for something that takes twice as long to develop, doesn't work, is not what the customer wanted and in the end, people like us get the contract to "fix" the bugs and make it work. I know the point you are making but please think a little bit less parochially - especially when using a global mailing list. Regards, Paul Honeywell Paul O'Riordan Honeywell Application Services Application Developer Industrial Park, Cork Road PeopleSoft Applications, Waterford Ireland +353-51-309856 Direct +353-51-309821 Fax +353-87-9083244 Mobile mailto:Paul.O'Riordan@honeywell.com -----Original Message----- From: Sam Spritzer [mailto:teknogeek9@YAHOO.COM] Sent: 02 October 2002 12:29 To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop opportunities! Generally speaking, this does not belong here but I think some degree of flexibility should be allowed to post off topic discussions which can have a dramatic impact on our ability to be an SQRer. For those of you who are not interested, please stop here and delete this. I have added OFF-TOPIC to the subject line for this reason. I agree with David. The proliferation of off-shore outsourcing has exploded over the last year. My own personal experience can testify to that both from an employed and unemployed perspective. This article seems to best address the issue: http://www.bayarea.com/mld/siliconvalley/4154071.htm I am not sure if the feds are doing anything but keep in mind, the offshore companies have a headstart - they have formed American subsidiaries which essentially serve as nothing more than conduits to the actual transaction. I have nothing against those who work for offshore companies and I have worked alongside several. The biggest barrier, of course, is language and culture. My only concern is my own livelihood as an SQRer. But, I also think it is a two-edged sword. Given today's economy and changing times, I think contracted rates of $75 or more (contracting firms are excluded) is considered excessive. The laws of supply and demand require we adjust accordingly. Unfortunately, many folks simply fail to see that hence, they are priced out of the market. At this point, I am not doing anything about it. Maybe I should...or maybe this discussion can evolve into a more positive voice which will give more power to deal with the issue. Who knows...lets see where this leads. Regards, Sam --- David Thorburn wrote: > To the list: > > This SPAM from an offshore outsourcing pirate, Mr. Reddy, arrived in my > email today. > > I just wanted to send this to the list, and selected media to make sure that > other > American IT Professionals are aware that people like this, who represent > offshore > development centers full of hordes of slaves, working in countries where > copyright and > patent laws are not respected, and, where most toil in slave programming > mills for > little more than their kids make rolling cigarettes are after your jobs and > career. > > Their aim is to put us out of business and replace us with their IT slaves. > > At least the imported H1B's spend money and pay taxes while they are here! > > H1B's are people, but foreign outsourcers are pirates! > > Write your elected officials and demand that they put a stop to offshore > outsourcing now! > > Do you want your credit, personnel, financial, and medical information being > programmed, stored, > copied, communicated, and manipulated by these pirates and by their slaves > in foreign countries? > > How can we expect our governments laws, which are meant to protect us, to > possibly > be enforced in these foreign counties known to be havens for espionage and > piracy? > > The time to act is now. > > Be watchful and aware of the threat to your career, your credit rating, and > your privacy. > > Regards, > > David > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Elite Outsource International, Inc" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:27 PM > Subject: Introducing - Elite Outsource International, Inc > > > > Hi, > > > > This is Srinivas Reddy from Elite Outsource International, Inc. I am > writing > > this letter to introduce myself and Elite's services of Software > > Development, > > Staff Augmentation (Consulting & Staffing), Project Management > > (On Site & Off Shore) and outsourcing services, that we offer in the > > Information Technology Industry. > > > > Please note that, I am well aware of the current market situation and my > > goal is to better utilize this quiet time to get to know each other and > > establish a mutual business understanding, that can be fruitful and > > beneficial to both our firms, towards your any and all future needs in the > > IT Discipline. > > > > I take this opportunity to bring to your attention of Elite Outsource > > International, Inc. A company that provides technology-driven services > > dedicated to helping its customers deploy, maximize, and manage > Information > > Systems Solutions. Elite Outsource International, Inc is one of America's > > fastest growing and dependable Private Company. Learn more about Elite > > Outsource International at www.eliteoutsource.com. > > > > I look forward to establishing a mutually beneficial relation between us. > I > > request you to contact me anytime without hesitation for any and all needs > > you come across in IT Industry. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > Srinivas Reddy > > General Manager. > > > > Elite Outsource International, Inc > > Reinforcing Excellence > > > > 3-14, Fox Run Drive, > > Plainsboro, > > New Jersey - 08536 > > www.eliteoutsource.com > > > > Phone: 609-716-7604 > > Fax: 609-716-4911 > > > > > > Under Bill s.1618 Title III passed by the 105th U.S.Congress this mail > > cannot be considered > > Spam as long as we include contact information and a remove link for > removal > > from our mailing > > list. To be removed from our mailing list reply to > > mailto:reddys@eliteoutsource.com?Subject=Remove > > with 'REMOVE' in the subject heading and your email address in the body. > > Include complete address > > and/or domain/aliases to be removed. If you still get the mails, please > call > > us at the numbers given > > above. > > > > ===== ************************************************************ "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find nothing." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 07:59:19 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 05:39:32 -0700 From: David Thorburn Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop oppor tunities! I am sure that I don't like your tone Paul. Your naivite is understandable. When you are laid off so that your company can replace you with outsourced resources maybe your perspective will change. D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "O'riordan, Paul (EI05)" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 5:08 AM Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop oppor tunities! > I'm not too sure that I like the tone of this string. It could be almost > construed as imflammatory and racial and cultural predjudice. > 1. you are assuming that everyone on the list is American or working there > and everyone else is irrelevant. How nice of you to accept the H1Bs as > people. > 2. You are also forgetting that these Outsourcing companies have in the main > been set up by Corporate America as a means of expanding the Global economy > and yes - getting cheaper labour. > 3. Outsourcing occurs in almost every country in the world so I would like > you to expand on how these places are all known to be Havens of espionage > and piracy? > I work for a multinational US based company with plants in over 100 > countries where yes - they do have the audacity to employ local talent - > and we even in Ireland are a lot cheaper than the US alternative but we also > are losing out to the rise in "competition" from Asia - within our own > company, but welcome to planet earth. You wanted capitalism and all of the > world markets opened up? Well the traffic goes both ways and you have to > accept it. We actually market ourselves as supplying quality product as > programmers, which is in effect cheaper in the long run to use, compared to > using cheaper, mass-produced work which needs constant attention, over runs > budget and deadlines and then fails to work. $80 p/hour for 8 hours is > cheaper than $40 and hour for something that takes twice as long to develop, > doesn't work, is not what the customer wanted and in the end, people like us > get the contract to "fix" the bugs and make it work. > I know the point you are making but please think a little bit less > parochially - especially when using a global mailing list. > Regards, > Paul > > > Honeywell > > Paul O'Riordan Honeywell Application Services > Application Developer Industrial Park, Cork Road > PeopleSoft Applications, Waterford Ireland > > +353-51-309856 > Direct > +353-51-309821 Fax > +353-87-9083244 Mobile > mailto:Paul.O'Riordan@honeywell.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sam Spritzer [mailto:teknogeek9@YAHOO.COM] > Sent: 02 October 2002 12:29 > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop > opportunities! > > > Generally speaking, this does not belong here but I think some degree of > flexibility should be allowed to post off topic discussions which can have a > dramatic impact on our ability to be an SQRer. For those of you who are not > interested, please stop here and delete this. I have added OFF-TOPIC to the > subject line for this reason. > > I agree with David. The proliferation of off-shore outsourcing has exploded > over the last year. My own personal experience can testify to that both > from > an employed and unemployed perspective. This article seems to best address > the > issue: > http://www.bayarea.com/mld/siliconvalley/4154071.htm > > I am not sure if the feds are doing anything but keep in mind, the offshore > companies have a headstart - they have formed American subsidiaries which > essentially serve as nothing more than conduits to the actual transaction. > > I have nothing against those who work for offshore companies and I have > worked > alongside several. The biggest barrier, of course, is language and culture. > My only concern is my own livelihood as an SQRer. But, I also think it is a > two-edged sword. Given today's economy and changing times, I think > contracted > rates of $75 or more (contracting firms are excluded) is considered > excessive. > The laws of supply and demand require we adjust accordingly. Unfortunately, > many folks simply fail to see that hence, they are priced out of the market. > > At this point, I am not doing anything about it. Maybe I should...or maybe > this discussion can evolve into a more positive voice which will give more > power to deal with the issue. Who knows...lets see where this leads. > > Regards, > Sam > > > --- David Thorburn wrote: > > To the list: > > > > This SPAM from an offshore outsourcing pirate, Mr. Reddy, arrived in my > > email today. > > > > I just wanted to send this to the list, and selected media to make sure > that > > other > > American IT Professionals are aware that people like this, who represent > > offshore > > development centers full of hordes of slaves, working in countries where > > copyright and > > patent laws are not respected, and, where most toil in slave programming > > mills for > > little more than their kids make rolling cigarettes are after your jobs > and > > career. > > > > Their aim is to put us out of business and replace us with their IT > slaves. > > > > At least the imported H1B's spend money and pay taxes while they are here! > > > > H1B's are people, but foreign outsourcers are pirates! > > > > Write your elected officials and demand that they put a stop to offshore > > outsourcing now! > > > > Do you want your credit, personnel, financial, and medical information > being > > programmed, stored, > > copied, communicated, and manipulated by these pirates and by their slaves > > in foreign countries? > > > > How can we expect our governments laws, which are meant to protect us, to > > possibly > > be enforced in these foreign counties known to be havens for espionage and > > piracy? > > > > The time to act is now. > > > > Be watchful and aware of the threat to your career, your credit rating, > and > > your privacy. > > > > Regards, > > > > David > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Elite Outsource International, Inc" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:27 PM > > Subject: Introducing - Elite Outsource International, Inc > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > This is Srinivas Reddy from Elite Outsource International, Inc. I am > > writing > > > this letter to introduce myself and Elite's services of Software > > > Development, > > > Staff Augmentation (Consulting & Staffing), Project Management > > > (On Site & Off Shore) and outsourcing services, that we offer in the > > > Information Technology Industry. > > > > > > Please note that, I am well aware of the current market situation and my > > > goal is to better utilize this quiet time to get to know each other and > > > establish a mutual business understanding, that can be fruitful and > > > beneficial to both our firms, towards your any and all future needs in > the > > > IT Discipline. > > > > > > I take this opportunity to bring to your attention of Elite Outsource > > > International, Inc. A company that provides technology-driven services > > > dedicated to helping its customers deploy, maximize, and manage > > Information > > > Systems Solutions. Elite Outsource International, Inc is one of > America's > > > fastest growing and dependable Private Company. Learn more about Elite > > > Outsource International at www.eliteoutsource.com. > > > > > > I look forward to establishing a mutually beneficial relation between > us. > > I > > > request you to contact me anytime without hesitation for any and all > needs > > > you come across in IT Industry. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > Srinivas Reddy > > > General Manager. > > > > > > Elite Outsource International, Inc > > > Reinforcing Excellence > > > > > > 3-14, Fox Run Drive, > > > Plainsboro, > > > New Jersey - 08536 > > > www.eliteoutsource.com > > > > > > Phone: 609-716-7604 > > > Fax: 609-716-4911 > > > > > > > > > Under Bill s.1618 Title III passed by the 105th U.S.Congress this mail > > > cannot be considered > > > Spam as long as we include contact information and a remove link for > > removal > > > from our mailing > > > list. To be removed from our mailing list reply to > > > mailto:reddys@eliteoutsource.com?Subject=Remove > > > with 'REMOVE' in the subject heading and your email address in the body. > > > Include complete address > > > and/or domain/aliases to be removed. If you still get the mails, please > > call > > > us at the numbers given > > > above. > > > > > > > > > ===== > ************************************************************ > "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find > nothing." > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 07:59:01 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 05:40:07 -0700 From: Sam Spritzer Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop oppor tunities! Paul, I am not sure if you understand the content of my message. My beef is with Corporate America more than the individual H1Bers themselves. Corporate America is more to the blame than anything else. The H1B program was established to address the issue of shortages of qualified programmers. But, the H1B process is cumbersome and a royal pain in the butt to administer. Hence, instead of being encumbered with that burden, they pass it off to the American "subsidiaries" of offshore outsourcing companies. These companies are no different than the local personnel firm that serves as an "employer of record" for many independent contractors. To me, using offshore companies to get labor, cheap or not, is a way of circumventing the H1B process and everything behind it. If Honeywell, or any other American corporation wants to hire someone from another country, good for them! I'll applaud that effort because it levels the playing field. BUT, I will NOT endorse nor tolerate any efforts to exploit loopholes in a process that was designed to be fair and equitable to all. While it may not be illegal, its unethical, immoral and certainly goes against the patriotism of ones own country. For those who take advantage of loopholes in the process, please keep in mind Murphy's law..."what goes up, must come down". Sam --- "O'riordan, Paul (EI05)" wrote: > I'm not too sure that I like the tone of this string. It could be almost > construed as imflammatory and racial and cultural predjudice. > 1. you are assuming that everyone on the list is American or working there > and everyone else is irrelevant. How nice of you to accept the H1Bs as > people. > 2. You are also forgetting that these Outsourcing companies have in the main > been set up by Corporate America as a means of expanding the Global economy > and yes - getting cheaper labour. > 3. Outsourcing occurs in almost every country in the world so I would like > you to expand on how these places are all known to be Havens of espionage > and piracy? > I work for a multinational US based company with plants in over 100 > countries where yes - they do have the audacity to employ local talent - > and we even in Ireland are a lot cheaper than the US alternative but we also > are losing out to the rise in "competition" from Asia - within our own > company, but welcome to planet earth. You wanted capitalism and all of the > world markets opened up? Well the traffic goes both ways and you have to > accept it. We actually market ourselves as supplying quality product as > programmers, which is in effect cheaper in the long run to use, compared to > using cheaper, mass-produced work which needs constant attention, over runs > budget and deadlines and then fails to work. $80 p/hour for 8 hours is > cheaper than $40 and hour for something that takes twice as long to develop, > doesn't work, is not what the customer wanted and in the end, people like us > get the contract to "fix" the bugs and make it work. > I know the point you are making but please think a little bit less > parochially - especially when using a global mailing list. > Regards, > Paul > > > Honeywell > > Paul O'Riordan Honeywell Application Services > Application Developer Industrial Park, Cork Road > PeopleSoft Applications, Waterford Ireland > > +353-51-309856 > Direct > +353-51-309821 Fax > +353-87-9083244 Mobile > mailto:Paul.O'Riordan@honeywell.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sam Spritzer [mailto:teknogeek9@YAHOO.COM] > Sent: 02 October 2002 12:29 > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop > opportunities! > > > Generally speaking, this does not belong here but I think some degree of > flexibility should be allowed to post off topic discussions which can have a > dramatic impact on our ability to be an SQRer. For those of you who are not > interested, please stop here and delete this. I have added OFF-TOPIC to the > subject line for this reason. > > I agree with David. The proliferation of off-shore outsourcing has exploded > over the last year. My own personal experience can testify to that both > from > an employed and unemployed perspective. This article seems to best address > the > issue: > http://www.bayarea.com/mld/siliconvalley/4154071.htm > > I am not sure if the feds are doing anything but keep in mind, the offshore > companies have a headstart - they have formed American subsidiaries which > essentially serve as nothing more than conduits to the actual transaction. > > I have nothing against those who work for offshore companies and I have > worked > alongside several. The biggest barrier, of course, is language and culture. > My only concern is my own livelihood as an SQRer. But, I also think it is a > two-edged sword. Given today's economy and changing times, I think > contracted > rates of $75 or more (contracting firms are excluded) is considered > excessive. > The laws of supply and demand require we adjust accordingly. Unfortunately, > many folks simply fail to see that hence, they are priced out of the market. > > At this point, I am not doing anything about it. Maybe I should...or maybe > this discussion can evolve into a more positive voice which will give more > power to deal with the issue. Who knows...lets see where this leads. > > Regards, > Sam > > > --- David Thorburn wrote: > > To the list: > > > > This SPAM from an offshore outsourcing pirate, Mr. Reddy, arrived in my > > email today. > > > > I just wanted to send this to the list, and selected media to make sure > that > > other > > American IT Professionals are aware that people like this, who represent > > offshore > > development centers full of hordes of slaves, working in countries where > > copyright and > > patent laws are not respected, and, where most toil in slave programming > > mills for > > little more than their kids make rolling cigarettes are after your jobs > and > > career. > > > > Their aim is to put us out of business and replace us with their IT > slaves. > > > > At least the imported H1B's spend money and pay taxes while they are here! > > > > H1B's are people, but foreign outsourcers are pirates! > > > > Write your elected officials and demand that they put a stop to offshore > > outsourcing now! > > > > Do you want your credit, personnel, financial, and medical information > being > > programmed, stored, > > copied, communicated, and manipulated by these pirates and by their slaves > > in foreign countries? > > > > How can we expect our governments laws, which are meant to protect us, to > > possibly > > be enforced in these foreign counties known to be havens for espionage and > > piracy? > > > > The time to act is now. > > > > Be watchful and aware of the threat to your career, your credit rating, > and > > your privacy. > > > > Regards, > > > > David > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Elite Outsource International, Inc" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:27 PM > > Subject: Introducing - Elite Outsource International, Inc > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > This is Srinivas Reddy from Elite Outsource International, Inc. I am > > writing > > > this letter to introduce myself and Elite's services of Software > > > Development, > > > Staff Augmentation (Consulting & Staffing), Project Management > > > (On Site & Off Shore) and outsourcing services, that we offer in the > > > Information Technology Industry. > > > > > > Please note that, I am well aware of the current market situation and my > > > goal is to better utilize this quiet time to get to know each other and > > > establish a mutual business understanding, that can be fruitful and > > > beneficial to both our firms, towards your any and all future needs in > the > > > IT Discipline. > > > > > > I take this opportunity to bring to your attention of Elite Outsource > > > International, Inc. A company that provides technology-driven services > > > dedicated to helping its customers deploy, maximize, and manage > > Information > > > Systems Solutions. Elite Outsource International, Inc is one of > America's > > > fastest growing and dependable Private Company. Learn more about Elite > > > Outsource International at www.eliteoutsource.com. > > > > > > I look forward to establishing a mutually beneficial relation between > us. > > I > > > request you to contact me anytime without hesitation for any and all > needs > > > you come across in IT Industry. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > Srinivas Reddy > > > General Manager. > > > > > > Elite Outsource International, Inc > > > Reinforcing Excellence > > > > > > 3-14, Fox Run Drive, > > > Plainsboro, > > > New Jersey - 08536 > > > www.eliteoutsource.com > > > > > > Phone: 609-716-7604 > > > Fax: 609-716-4911 > > > > > > > > > Under Bill s.1618 Title III passed by the 105th U.S.Congress this mail > > > cannot be considered > > > Spam as long as we include contact information and a remove link for > > removal > > > from our mailing > > > list. To be removed from our mailing list reply to > > > mailto:reddys@eliteoutsource.com?Subject=Remove > > > with 'REMOVE' in the subject heading and your email address in the body. > > > Include complete address > > > and/or domain/aliases to be removed. If you still get the mails, please > > call > > > us at the numbers given > > > above. > > > > > > > > > ===== > ************************************************************ > "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find > nothing." > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com ===== ************************************************************ "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find nothing." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 13:09:46 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:36:51 -0700 From: "McCown, Larry" Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop oppor tunities! Or at least find a YAHOO political group that would love to carry on this conversation while the rest of us get back to what "Corporate America" is paying us to do. Are any of us naive or young enough not to recall when items were considered cheep if they were made in Japan or Taiwan as they are now with China. Or when was the last time you could carry on a conversation with a janitor or cleaning person in the same language or better yet order fast food and understand what you ordered! (In Southern California these are rare cases) How about trying to even find something that is made in the USA! Greed is at the bottom of the social ladder just as it is at the top. When we go to the store do we buy the most expensive item just because it was partially made in the USA or the cheaper item made in an underdeveloped country. Generic or name brand? How many of us would hang onto stock that was making items only in America but losing money because the customers where buying cheaper products made in other countries? "For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it, have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many grief's." 1 Timothy 6:10 Answer the posts you want to help and ignore those you don't. -----Original Message----- From: Sam Spritzer [mailto:teknogeek9@YAHOO.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:16 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop opportunities! Ken, Honeywell is just the tip of the iceberg. Who knows who else is doing it. What we really need is a special interest group powerful enough to make an impact. Heck, I bet the AFL-CIO would certainly endorse and help one! Sam --- Ken Boettger wrote: > Honeywell? Outsourcing American jobs too??? > > Thank you for making me aware of that. I will be writing them a letter and > talking to my congressman in regards to them too. > > -Ken > > >>> teknogeek9@YAHOO.com 10/02/02 05:40AM >>> > Paul, > I am not sure if you understand the content of my message. My beef is with > Corporate America more than the individual H1Bers themselves. Corporate > America is more to the blame than anything else. The H1B program was > established to address the issue of shortages of qualified programmers. But, > the H1B process is cumbersome and a royal pain in the butt to administer. > Hence, instead of being encumbered with that burden, they pass it off to the > American "subsidiaries" of offshore outsourcing companies. These companies > are > no different than the local personnel firm that serves as an "employer of > record" for many independent contractors. To me, using offshore companies to > get labor, cheap or not, is a way of circumventing the H1B process and > everything behind it. > > If Honeywell, or any other American corporation wants to hire someone from > another country, good for them! I'll applaud that effort because it levels > the > playing field. BUT, I will NOT endorse nor tolerate any efforts to exploit > loopholes in a process that was designed to be fair and equitable to all. > While it may not be illegal, its unethical, immoral and certainly goes > against > the patriotism of ones own country. For those who take advantage of > loopholes > in the process, please keep in mind Murphy's law..."what goes up, must come > down". > > Sam > > --- "O'riordan, Paul (EI05)" wrote: > > I'm not too sure that I like the tone of this string. It could be almost > > construed as imflammatory and racial and cultural predjudice. > > 1. you are assuming that everyone on the list is American or working there > > and everyone else is irrelevant. How nice of you to accept the H1Bs as > > people. > > 2. You are also forgetting that these Outsourcing companies have in the > main > > been set up by Corporate America as a means of expanding the Global economy > > and yes - getting cheaper labour. > > 3. Outsourcing occurs in almost every country in the world so I would like > > you to expand on how these places are all known to be Havens of espionage > > and piracy? > > I work for a multinational US based company with plants in over 100 > > countries where yes - they do have the audacity to employ local talent - > > and we even in Ireland are a lot cheaper than the US alternative but we > also > > are losing out to the rise in "competition" from Asia - within our own > > company, but welcome to planet earth. You wanted capitalism and all of the > > world markets opened up? Well the traffic goes both ways and you have to > > accept it. We actually market ourselves as supplying quality product as > > programmers, which is in effect cheaper in the long run to use, compared to > > using cheaper, mass-produced work which needs constant attention, over runs > > budget and deadlines and then fails to work. $80 p/hour for 8 hours is > > cheaper than $40 and hour for something that takes twice as long to > develop, > > doesn't work, is not what the customer wanted and in the end, people like > us > > get the contract to "fix" the bugs and make it work. > > I know the point you are making but please think a little bit less > > parochially - especially when using a global mailing list. > > Regards, > > Paul > > > > > > Honeywell > > > > Paul O'Riordan Honeywell Application Services > > Application Developer Industrial Park, Cork Road > > PeopleSoft Applications, Waterford Ireland > > > > +353-51-309856 > > Direct > > +353-51-309821 Fax > > +353-87-9083244 Mobile > > mailto:Paul.O'Riordan@honeywell.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sam Spritzer [mailto:teknogeek9@YAHOO.COM] > > Sent: 02 October 2002 12:29 > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > Subject: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop > > opportunities! > > > > > > Generally speaking, this does not belong here but I think some degree of > > flexibility should be allowed to post off topic discussions which can have > a > > dramatic impact on our ability to be an SQRer. For those of you who are > not > > interested, please stop here and delete this. I have added OFF-TOPIC to > the > > subject line for this reason. > > > > I agree with David. The proliferation of off-shore outsourcing has > exploded > > over the last year. My own personal experience can testify to that both > > from > > an employed and unemployed perspective. This article seems to best address > > the > > issue: > > http://www.bayarea.com/mld/siliconvalley/4154071.htm > > > > I am not sure if the feds are doing anything but keep in mind, the offshore > > companies have a headstart - they have formed American subsidiaries which > > essentially serve as nothing more than conduits to the actual transaction. > > > > I have nothing against those who work for offshore companies and I have > > worked > > alongside several. The biggest barrier, of course, is language and > culture. > > My only concern is my own livelihood as an SQRer. But, I also think it is > a > > two-edged sword. Given today's economy and changing times, I think > > contracted > > rates of $75 or more (contracting firms are excluded) is considered > > excessive. > > The laws of supply and demand require we adjust accordingly. > Unfortunately, > > many folks simply fail to see that hence, they are priced out of the > market. > > > > At this point, I am not doing anything about it. Maybe I should...or maybe > > this discussion can evolve into a more positive voice which will give more > > power to deal with the issue. Who knows...lets see where this leads. > > > > Regards, > > Sam > > > > > > --- David Thorburn wrote: > > > To the list: > > > > > > This SPAM from an offshore outsourcing pirate, Mr. Reddy, arrived in my > > > email today. > > > > > > I just wanted to send this to the list, and selected media to make sure > > that > > > other > > > American IT Professionals are aware that people like this, who represent > > > offshore > > > development centers full of hordes of slaves, working in countries where > > > copyright and > > > patent laws are not respected, and, where most toil in slave programming > > > mills for > > > little more than their kids make rolling cigarettes are after your jobs > > and > > > career. > > > > > > Their aim is to put us out of business and replace us with their IT > > slaves. > > > > > > At least the imported H1B's spend money and pay taxes while they are > here! > > > > > > H1B's are people, but foreign outsourcers are pirates! > > > > > > Write your elected officials and demand that they put a stop to offshore > > > outsourcing now! > > > > > > Do you want your credit, personnel, financial, and medical information > > being > > > programmed, stored, > > > copied, communicated, and manipulated by these pirates and by their > slaves > > > in foreign countries? > > > > > > How can we expect our governments laws, which are meant to protect us, to > > > possibly > > > be enforced in these foreign counties known to be havens for espionage > and > > > piracy? > > > > > > The time to act is now. > > > > > > Be watchful and aware of the threat to your career, your credit rating, > > and > > > your privacy. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > David > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Elite Outsource International, Inc" > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:27 PM > > > Subject: Introducing - Elite Outsource International, Inc > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > This is Srinivas Reddy from Elite Outsource International, Inc. I am > > > writing > > > > this letter to introduce myself and Elite's services of Software > > > > Development, > > > > Staff Augmentation (Consulting & Staffing), Project Management > > > > (On Site & Off Shore) and outsourcing services, that we offer in the > > > > Information Technology Industry. > > > > > > > > Please note that, I am well aware of the current market situation and > my > > > > goal is to better utilize this quiet time to get to know each other and > > > > establish a mutual business understanding, that can be fruitful and > > > > beneficial to both our firms, towards your any and all future needs in > > the > > > > IT Discipline. > > > > > > > > I take this opportunity to bring to your attention of Elite Outsource > > > > International, Inc. A company that provides technology-driven services > > > > dedicated to helping its customers deploy, maximize, and manage > > > Information > > > > Systems Solutions. Elite Outsource International, Inc is one of > > America's > > > > fastest growing and dependable Private Company. Learn more about Elite > > > > Outsource International at www.eliteoutsource.com. > > > > > > > > I look forward to establishing a mutually beneficial relation between > > us. > > > I > > > > request you to contact me anytime without hesitation for any and all > > needs > > > > you come across in IT Industry. > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > Srinivas Reddy > > > > General Manager. > > > > > > > > Elite Outsource International, Inc > > > > Reinforcing Excellence > > > > > > > > 3-14, Fox Run Drive, > > > > Plainsboro, > > > > New Jersey - 08536 > > > > www.eliteoutsource.com > > > > > > > > Phone: 609-716-7604 > > > > Fax: 609-716-4911 > > > > > > > > > > > > Under Bill s.1618 Title III passed by the 105th U.S.Congress this mail > > > > cannot be considered > > > > Spam as long as we include contact information and a remove link for > > > removal > > > > from our mailing > > > > list. To be removed from our mailing list reply to > > > > mailto:reddys@eliteoutsource.com?Subject=Remove > > > > with 'REMOVE' in the subject heading and your email address in the > body. > > > > Include complete address > > > > and/or domain/aliases to be removed. If you still get the mails, please > > > call > > > > us at the numbers given > > > > above. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > ************************************************************ > > "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find > > nothing." > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > > ===== > ************************************************************ > "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find > nothing." > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com ===== ************************************************************ "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find nothing." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 13:17:03 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:52:22 -0700 From: Sam Spritzer Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop oppor tunities! Larry, I almost have to believe that you are missing the point of the discussion. It is about companies who abuse the H1B program by using offshore companies. If my company wants to hire someone from Asia, so long as they are doing it lawfully, I have no problem. But, to circumvent the process by using offshore companies...is almost illegal. Therefore you, as well as anyone else, could be at the mercy of the very labor laws that the federal government has passed. Sam --- "McCown, Larry" wrote: > Or at least find a YAHOO political group that would love to carry on this > conversation while the rest of us get back to what "Corporate America" is > paying us to do. > > Are any of us naive or young enough not to recall when items were considered > cheep if they were made in Japan or Taiwan as they are now with China. Or > when was the last time you could carry on a conversation with a janitor or > cleaning person in the same language or better yet order fast food and > understand what you ordered! (In Southern California these are rare cases) > How about trying to even find something that is made in the USA! Greed is > at the bottom of the social ladder just as it is at the top. When we go to > the store do we buy the most expensive item just because it was partially > made in the USA or the cheaper item made in an underdeveloped country. > Generic or name brand? > How many of us would hang onto stock that was making items only in America > but losing money because the customers where buying cheaper products made in > other countries? > > "For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing > for it, have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many > grief's." 1 Timothy 6:10 > > Answer the posts you want to help and ignore those you don't. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sam Spritzer [mailto:teknogeek9@YAHOO.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:16 AM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop > opportunities! > > > Ken, > Honeywell is just the tip of the iceberg. Who knows who else is doing it. > What we really need is a special interest group powerful enough to make an > impact. Heck, I bet the AFL-CIO would certainly endorse and help one! > Sam > > > > --- Ken Boettger wrote: > > Honeywell? Outsourcing American jobs too??? > > > > Thank you for making me aware of that. I will be writing them a letter and > > talking to my congressman in regards to them too. > > > > -Ken > > > > >>> teknogeek9@YAHOO.com 10/02/02 05:40AM >>> > > Paul, > > I am not sure if you understand the content of my message. My beef is > with > > Corporate America more than the individual H1Bers themselves. Corporate > > America is more to the blame than anything else. The H1B program was > > established to address the issue of shortages of qualified programmers. > But, > > the H1B process is cumbersome and a royal pain in the butt to administer. > > Hence, instead of being encumbered with that burden, they pass it off to > the > > American "subsidiaries" of offshore outsourcing companies. These > companies > > are > > no different than the local personnel firm that serves as an "employer of > > record" for many independent contractors. To me, using offshore companies > to > > get labor, cheap or not, is a way of circumventing the H1B process and > > everything behind it. > > > > If Honeywell, or any other American corporation wants to hire someone from > > another country, good for them! I'll applaud that effort because it > levels > > the > > playing field. BUT, I will NOT endorse nor tolerate any efforts to > exploit > > loopholes in a process that was designed to be fair and equitable to all. > > While it may not be illegal, its unethical, immoral and certainly goes > > against > > the patriotism of ones own country. For those who take advantage of > > loopholes > > in the process, please keep in mind Murphy's law..."what goes up, must > come > > down". > > > > Sam > > > > --- "O'riordan, Paul (EI05)" wrote: > > > I'm not too sure that I like the tone of this string. It could be almost > > > construed as imflammatory and racial and cultural predjudice. > > > 1. you are assuming that everyone on the list is American or working > there > > > and everyone else is irrelevant. How nice of you to accept the H1Bs as > > > people. > > > 2. You are also forgetting that these Outsourcing companies have in the > > main > > > been set up by Corporate America as a means of expanding the Global > economy > > > and yes - getting cheaper labour. > > > 3. Outsourcing occurs in almost every country in the world so I would > like > > > you to expand on how these places are all known to be Havens of > espionage > > > and piracy? > > > I work for a multinational US based company with plants in over 100 > > > countries where yes - they do have the audacity to employ local talent > - > > > and we even in Ireland are a lot cheaper than the US alternative but we > > also > > > are losing out to the rise in "competition" from Asia - within our own > > > company, but welcome to planet earth. You wanted capitalism and all of > the > > > world markets opened up? Well the traffic goes both ways and you have to > > > accept it. We actually market ourselves as supplying quality product as > > > programmers, which is in effect cheaper in the long run to use, compared > to > > > using cheaper, mass-produced work which needs constant attention, over > runs > > > budget and deadlines and then fails to work. $80 p/hour for 8 hours is > > > cheaper than $40 and hour for something that takes twice as long to > > develop, > > > doesn't work, is not what the customer wanted and in the end, people > like > > us > > > get the contract to "fix" the bugs and make it work. > > > I know the point you are making but please think a little bit less > > > parochially - especially when using a global mailing list. > > > Regards, > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > Honeywell > > > > > > Paul O'Riordan Honeywell Application Services > > > Application Developer Industrial Park, Cork Road > > > PeopleSoft Applications, Waterford Ireland > > > > > > +353-51-309856 > > > Direct > > > +353-51-309821 Fax > > > +353-87-9083244 Mobile > > > mailto:Paul.O'Riordan@honeywell.com > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Sam Spritzer [mailto:teknogeek9@YAHOO.COM] > > > Sent: 02 October 2002 12:29 > > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > > Subject: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop > > > opportunities! > > > > > > > > > Generally speaking, this does not belong here but I think some degree of > > > flexibility should be allowed to post off topic discussions which can > have > > a > > > dramatic impact on our ability to be an SQRer. For those of you who are > > not > > > interested, please stop here and delete this. I have added OFF-TOPIC to > > the > > > subject line for this reason. > > > > > > I agree with David. The proliferation of off-shore outsourcing has > > exploded > > > over the last year. My own personal experience can testify to that both > > > from > > > an employed and unemployed perspective. This article seems to best > address > > > the > > > issue: > > > http://www.bayarea.com/mld/siliconvalley/4154071.htm > > > > > > I am not sure if the feds are doing anything but keep in mind, the > offshore > > > companies have a headstart - they have formed American subsidiaries > which > > > essentially serve as nothing more than conduits to the actual > transaction. > > > > > > I have nothing against those who work for offshore companies and I have > > > worked > > > alongside several. The biggest barrier, of course, is language and > > culture. > > > My only concern is my own livelihood as an SQRer. But, I also think it > is > > a > > > two-edged sword. Given today's economy and changing times, I think > > > contracted > > > rates of $75 or more (contracting firms are excluded) is considered > > > excessive. > > > The laws of supply and demand require we adjust accordingly. > > Unfortunately, > > > many folks simply fail to see that hence, they are priced out of the > > market. > > > > > > At this point, I am not doing anything about it. Maybe I should...or > maybe > > > this discussion can evolve into a more positive voice which will give > more > > > power to deal with the issue. Who knows...lets see where this leads. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Sam > > > > > > > > > --- David Thorburn wrote: > > > > To the list: > > > > > > > > This SPAM from an offshore outsourcing pirate, Mr. Reddy, arrived in > my > > > > email today. > > > > > > > > I just wanted to send this to the list, and selected media to make > sure > > > that > > > > other > > > > American IT Professionals are aware that people like this, who > represent > > > > offshore > > > > development centers full of hordes of slaves, working in countries > where > > > > copyright and > > > > patent laws are not respected, and, where most toil in slave > programming > > > > mills for > > > > little more than their kids make rolling cigarettes are after your > jobs > > > and > > > > career. > > > > > > > > Their aim is to put us out of business and replace us with their IT > > > slaves. > > > > > > > > At least the imported H1B's spend money and pay taxes while they are > > here! > > > > > > > > H1B's are people, but foreign outsourcers are pirates! > > > > > > > > Write your elected officials and demand that they put a stop to > offshore > > > > outsourcing now! > > > > > > > > Do you want your credit, personnel, financial, and medical information > > > being > > > > programmed, stored, > > > > copied, communicated, and manipulated by these pirates and by their > > slaves > > > > in foreign countries? > > > > > > > > How can we expect our governments laws, which are meant to protect us, > to > > > > possibly > > > > be enforced in these foreign counties known to be havens for espionage > > and > > > > piracy? > > > > > > > > The time to act is now. > > > > > > > > Be watchful and aware of the threat to your career, your credit > rating, > > > and > > > > your privacy. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > David > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Elite Outsource International, Inc" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:27 PM > > > > Subject: Introducing - Elite Outsource International, Inc > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > This is Srinivas Reddy from Elite Outsource International, Inc. I am > > > > writing > > > > > this letter to introduce myself and Elite's services of Software > > > > > Development, > > > > > Staff Augmentation (Consulting & Staffing), Project Management > > > > > (On Site & Off Shore) and outsourcing services, that we offer in the > > > > > Information Technology Industry. > > > > > > > > > > Please note that, I am well aware of the current market situation > and > > my > > > > > goal is to better utilize this quiet time to get to know each other > and > > > > > establish a mutual business understanding, that can be fruitful and > > > > > beneficial to both our firms, towards your any and all future needs > in > > > the > > > > > IT Discipline. > > > > > > > > > > I take this opportunity to bring to your attention of Elite > Outsource > > > > > International, Inc. A company that provides technology-driven > services > > > > > dedicated to helping its customers deploy, maximize, and manage > > > > Information > > > > > Systems Solutions. Elite Outsource International, Inc is one of > > > America's > > > > > fastest growing and dependable Private Company. Learn more about > Elite > > > > > Outsource International at www.eliteoutsource.com. > > > > > > > > > > I look forward to establishing a mutually beneficial relation > between > > > us. > > > > I > > > > > request you to contact me anytime without hesitation for any and all > > > needs > > > > > you come across in IT Industry. > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Srinivas Reddy > > > > > General Manager. > > > > > > > > > > Elite Outsource International, Inc > > > > > Reinforcing Excellence > > > > > > > > > > 3-14, Fox Run Drive, > > > > > Plainsboro, > > > > > New Jersey - 08536 > > > > > www.eliteoutsource.com > > > > > > > > > > Phone: 609-716-7604 > > > > > Fax: 609-716-4911 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Under Bill s.1618 Title III passed by the 105th U.S.Congress this > mail > > > > > cannot be considered > > > > > Spam as long as we include contact information and a remove link for > > > > removal > > > > > from our mailing > > > > > list. To be removed from our mailing list reply to > > > > > mailto:reddys@eliteoutsource.com?Subject=Remove > > > > > with 'REMOVE' in the subject heading and your email address in the > > body. > > > > > Include complete address > > > > > and/or domain/aliases to be removed. If you still get the mails, > please > > > > call > > > > > us at the numbers given > > > > > above. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > ************************************************************ > > > "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find > > > nothing." > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > > > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > > > > > ===== > > ************************************************************ > > "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find > > nothing." > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > > ===== > ************************************************************ > "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find > nothing." > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com ===== ************************************************************ "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find nothing." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 13:45:46 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:23:00 -0500 From: "Lock, Edward J" Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop oppor tunities! This is a technical listserv, focused on sqr and PeopleSoft-related issues. I would think that there are other forums that are more appropriate for political discussions. -----Original Message----- From: McCown, Larry [mailto:MCCOWLA@MAIL.NORTHGRUM.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 12:37 PM To: SQR-USERS@LIST.IEX.NET Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop oppor tunities! Or at least find a YAHOO political group that would love to carry on this conversation while the rest of us get back to what "Corporate America" is paying us to do. Are any of us naive or young enough not to recall when items were considered cheep if they were made in Japan or Taiwan as they are now with China. Or when was the last time you could carry on a conversation with a janitor or cleaning person in the same language or better yet order fast food and understand what you ordered! (In Southern California these are rare cases) How about trying to even find something that is made in the USA! Greed is at the bottom of the social ladder just as it is at the top. When we go to the store do we buy the most expensive item just because it was partially made in the USA or the cheaper item made in an underdeveloped country. Generic or name brand? How many of us would hang onto stock that was making items only in America but losing money because the customers where buying cheaper products made in other countries? "For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it, have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many grief's." 1 Timothy 6:10 Answer the posts you want to help and ignore those you don't. -----Original Message----- From: Sam Spritzer [mailto:teknogeek9@YAHOO.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:16 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop opportunities! Ken, Honeywell is just the tip of the iceberg. Who knows who else is doing it. What we really need is a special interest group powerful enough to make an impact. Heck, I bet the AFL-CIO would certainly endorse and help one! Sam --- Ken Boettger wrote: > Honeywell? Outsourcing American jobs too??? > > Thank you for making me aware of that. I will be writing them a letter and > talking to my congressman in regards to them too. > > -Ken > > >>> teknogeek9@YAHOO.com 10/02/02 05:40AM >>> > Paul, > I am not sure if you understand the content of my message. My beef is with > Corporate America more than the individual H1Bers themselves. Corporate > America is more to the blame than anything else. The H1B program was > established to address the issue of shortages of qualified programmers. But, > the H1B process is cumbersome and a royal pain in the butt to administer. > Hence, instead of being encumbered with that burden, they pass it off to the > American "subsidiaries" of offshore outsourcing companies. These companies > are > no different than the local personnel firm that serves as an "employer of > record" for many independent contractors. To me, using offshore companies to > get labor, cheap or not, is a way of circumventing the H1B process and > everything behind it. > > If Honeywell, or any other American corporation wants to hire someone from > another country, good for them! I'll applaud that effort because it levels > the > playing field. BUT, I will NOT endorse nor tolerate any efforts to exploit > loopholes in a process that was designed to be fair and equitable to all. > While it may not be illegal, its unethical, immoral and certainly goes > against > the patriotism of ones own country. For those who take advantage of > loopholes > in the process, please keep in mind Murphy's law..."what goes up, must come > down". > > Sam > > --- "O'riordan, Paul (EI05)" wrote: > > I'm not too sure that I like the tone of this string. It could be almost > > construed as imflammatory and racial and cultural predjudice. > > 1. you are assuming that everyone on the list is American or working there > > and everyone else is irrelevant. How nice of you to accept the H1Bs as > > people. > > 2. You are also forgetting that these Outsourcing companies have in the > main > > been set up by Corporate America as a means of expanding the Global economy > > and yes - getting cheaper labour. > > 3. Outsourcing occurs in almost every country in the world so I would like > > you to expand on how these places are all known to be Havens of espionage > > and piracy? > > I work for a multinational US based company with plants in over 100 > > countries where yes - they do have the audacity to employ local talent - > > and we even in Ireland are a lot cheaper than the US alternative but we > also > > are losing out to the rise in "competition" from Asia - within our own > > company, but welcome to planet earth. You wanted capitalism and all of the > > world markets opened up? Well the traffic goes both ways and you have to > > accept it. We actually market ourselves as supplying quality product as > > programmers, which is in effect cheaper in the long run to use, compared to > > using cheaper, mass-produced work which needs constant attention, over runs > > budget and deadlines and then fails to work. $80 p/hour for 8 hours is > > cheaper than $40 and hour for something that takes twice as long to > develop, > > doesn't work, is not what the customer wanted and in the end, people like > us > > get the contract to "fix" the bugs and make it work. > > I know the point you are making but please think a little bit less > > parochially - especially when using a global mailing list. > > Regards, > > Paul > > > > > > Honeywell > > > > Paul O'Riordan Honeywell Application Services > > Application Developer Industrial Park, Cork Road > > PeopleSoft Applications, Waterford Ireland > > > > +353-51-309856 > > Direct > > +353-51-309821 Fax > > +353-87-9083244 Mobile > > mailto:Paul.O'Riordan@honeywell.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sam Spritzer [mailto:teknogeek9@YAHOO.COM] > > Sent: 02 October 2002 12:29 > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > Subject: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop > > opportunities! > > > > > > Generally speaking, this does not belong here but I think some degree of > > flexibility should be allowed to post off topic discussions which can have > a > > dramatic impact on our ability to be an SQRer. For those of you who are > not > > interested, please stop here and delete this. I have added OFF-TOPIC to > the > > subject line for this reason. > > > > I agree with David. The proliferation of off-shore outsourcing has > exploded > > over the last year. My own personal experience can testify to that both > > from > > an employed and unemployed perspective. This article seems to best address > > the > > issue: > > http://www.bayarea.com/mld/siliconvalley/4154071.htm > > > > I am not sure if the feds are doing anything but keep in mind, the offshore > > companies have a headstart - they have formed American subsidiaries which > > essentially serve as nothing more than conduits to the actual transaction. > > > > I have nothing against those who work for offshore companies and I have > > worked > > alongside several. The biggest barrier, of course, is language and > culture. > > My only concern is my own livelihood as an SQRer. But, I also think it is > a > > two-edged sword. Given today's economy and changing times, I think > > contracted > > rates of $75 or more (contracting firms are excluded) is considered > > excessive. > > The laws of supply and demand require we adjust accordingly. > Unfortunately, > > many folks simply fail to see that hence, they are priced out of the > market. > > > > At this point, I am not doing anything about it. Maybe I should...or maybe > > this discussion can evolve into a more positive voice which will give more > > power to deal with the issue. Who knows...lets see where this leads. > > > > Regards, > > Sam > > > > > > --- David Thorburn wrote: > > > To the list: > > > > > > This SPAM from an offshore outsourcing pirate, Mr. Reddy, arrived in my > > > email today. > > > > > > I just wanted to send this to the list, and selected media to make sure > > that > > > other > > > American IT Professionals are aware that people like this, who represent > > > offshore > > > development centers full of hordes of slaves, working in countries where > > > copyright and > > > patent laws are not respected, and, where most toil in slave programming > > > mills for > > > little more than their kids make rolling cigarettes are after your jobs > > and > > > career. > > > > > > Their aim is to put us out of business and replace us with their IT > > slaves. > > > > > > At least the imported H1B's spend money and pay taxes while they are > here! > > > > > > H1B's are people, but foreign outsourcers are pirates! > > > > > > Write your elected officials and demand that they put a stop to offshore > > > outsourcing now! > > > > > > Do you want your credit, personnel, financial, and medical information > > being > > > programmed, stored, > > > copied, communicated, and manipulated by these pirates and by their > slaves > > > in foreign countries? > > > > > > How can we expect our governments laws, which are meant to protect us, to > > > possibly > > > be enforced in these foreign counties known to be havens for espionage > and > > > piracy? > > > > > > The time to act is now. > > > > > > Be watchful and aware of the threat to your career, your credit rating, > > and > > > your privacy. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > David > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Elite Outsource International, Inc" > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:27 PM > > > Subject: Introducing - Elite Outsource International, Inc > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > This is Srinivas Reddy from Elite Outsource International, Inc. I am > > > writing > > > > this letter to introduce myself and Elite's services of Software > > > > Development, > > > > Staff Augmentation (Consulting & Staffing), Project Management > > > > (On Site & Off Shore) and outsourcing services, that we offer in the > > > > Information Technology Industry. > > > > > > > > Please note that, I am well aware of the current market situation and > my > > > > goal is to better utilize this quiet time to get to know each other and > > > > establish a mutual business understanding, that can be fruitful and > > > > beneficial to both our firms, towards your any and all future needs in > > the > > > > IT Discipline. > > > > > > > > I take this opportunity to bring to your attention of Elite Outsource > > > > International, Inc. A company that provides technology-driven services > > > > dedicated to helping its customers deploy, maximize, and manage > > > Information > > > > Systems Solutions. Elite Outsource International, Inc is one of > > America's > > > > fastest growing and dependable Private Company. Learn more about Elite > > > > Outsource International at www.eliteoutsource.com. > > > > > > > > I look forward to establishing a mutually beneficial relation between > > us. > > > I > > > > request you to contact me anytime without hesitation for any and all > > needs > > > > you come across in IT Industry. > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > Srinivas Reddy > > > > General Manager. > > > > > > > > Elite Outsource International, Inc > > > > Reinforcing Excellence > > > > > > > > 3-14, Fox Run Drive, > > > > Plainsboro, > > > > New Jersey - 08536 > > > > www.eliteoutsource.com > > > > > > > > Phone: 609-716-7604 > > > > Fax: 609-716-4911 > > > > > > > > > > > > Under Bill s.1618 Title III passed by the 105th U.S.Congress this mail > > > > cannot be considered > > > > Spam as long as we include contact information and a remove link for > > > removal > > > > from our mailing > > > > list. To be removed from our mailing list reply to > > > > mailto:reddys@eliteoutsource.com?Subject=Remove > > > > with 'REMOVE' in the subject heading and your email address in the > body. > > > > Include complete address > > > > and/or domain/aliases to be removed. If you still get the mails, please > > > call > > > > us at the numbers given > > > > above. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > ************************************************************ > > "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find > > nothing." > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > > ===== > ************************************************************ > "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find > nothing." > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com ===== ************************************************************ "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find nothing." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Sat Oct 5 15:49:51 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 15:30:57 -0500 From: the dragon Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop oppor tunities! I haven't really been paying attention to this thread all that much, until I saw Sam's name, and I thought I'd add my opinion. And it goes something like this.... As long as the market economy is great in the US (which it isn't), then spread the good fortune around. BUT, when the market starts going down (like after we get idiots in the white house who want to play hitler), and US people are out of jobs, it's time to close the foreign consultants down, regardless of where they come from. I know it's cheaper to hire a foreign consultant, and many of them are the cream of the crop, but, let's be serious, the majority of money that is earned by these foreign consultants does not stay in the US like it would if a US citizen were hired, it's banked and sent home where it has 1000+% more buying power. In my opinion, since the US economy depends on the US worker spending US money, then companies should be hiring the US workers for positions in this country, even if it means paying a premium. Yes, the economy in this country is somewhat driven by supply and demand (if you discount telecommunications and the oil industry), but, once again, we need US workers to keep the US economy alive. I once worked for a software development company which played the H1B game, and they'd advertise for employees, and then never hire qualified applicants because they wanted to keep their foreign employees. If that sounds racist, culturist, whatever, tough; I make no apology. clark PSA: Salary <> Slavery. If you earn a salary, your employer is renting your services for 40 hours a week, not purchasing your soul. Your time is the only real finite asset that you have, and once used it can never be recovered, so don't waste it by giving it away. "Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you." Carl Sandburg (1878 - 1967) _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Sat Oct 5 17:21:48 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 14:53:24 -0700 From: David Thorburn Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop oppor tunities! Thanks Clark for validating my admitedly non-politically-correct opinion. I am really becoming tired of the 'PC Chorus' flaming me for stating the truth. Regards, David ----- Original Message ----- From: "the dragon" To: Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 1:30 PM Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop oppor tunities! I haven't really been paying attention to this thread all that much, until I saw Sam's name, and I thought I'd add my opinion. And it goes something like this.... As long as the market economy is great in the US (which it isn't), then spread the good fortune around. BUT, when the market starts going down (like after we get idiots in the white house who want to play hitler), and US people are out of jobs, it's time to close the foreign consultants down, regardless of where they come from. I know it's cheaper to hire a foreign consultant, and many of them are the cream of the crop, but, let's be serious, the majority of money that is earned by these foreign consultants does not stay in the US like it would if a US citizen were hired, it's banked and sent home where it has 1000+% more buying power. In my opinion, since the US economy depends on the US worker spending US money, then companies should be hiring the US workers for positions in this country, even if it means paying a premium. Yes, the economy in this country is somewhat driven by supply and demand (if you discount telecommunications and the oil industry), but, once again, we need US workers to keep the US economy alive. I once worked for a software development company which played the H1B game, and they'd advertise for employees, and then never hire qualified applicants because they wanted to keep their foreign employees. If that sounds racist, culturist, whatever, tough; I make no apology. clark PSA: Salary <> Slavery. If you earn a salary, your employer is renting your services for 40 hours a week, not purchasing your soul. Your time is the only real finite asset that you have, and once used it can never be recovered, so don't waste it by giving it away. "Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you." Carl Sandburg (1878 - 1967) _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Sat Oct 5 20:47:04 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 21:24:13 -0400 From: Stephen Keen Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop oppor tunities! You know I have been keeping out of this - but when you compare the president of the US to Hitler IT REALLY SHOWS YOUR STUPIDITY.!!!!! Kiss off you Stupid JERK -----Original Message----- From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net] On Behalf Of the dragon Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 4:31 PM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop oppor tunities! I haven't really been paying attention to this thread all that much, until I saw Sam's name, and I thought I'd add my opinion. And it goes something like this.... As long as the market economy is great in the US (which it isn't), then spread the good fortune around. BUT, when the market starts going down (like after we get idiots in the white house who want to play hitler), and US people are out of jobs, it's time to close the foreign consultants down, regardless of where they come from. I know it's cheaper to hire a foreign consultant, and many of them are the cream of the crop, but, let's be serious, the majority of money that is earned by these foreign consultants does not stay in the US like it would if a US citizen were hired, it's banked and sent home where it has 1000+% more buying power. In my opinion, since the US economy depends on the US worker spending US money, then companies should be hiring the US workers for positions in this country, even if it means paying a premium. Yes, the economy in this country is somewhat driven by supply and demand (if you discount telecommunications and the oil industry), but, once again, we need US workers to keep the US economy alive. I once worked for a software development company which played the H1B game, and they'd advertise for employees, and then never hire qualified applicants because they wanted to keep their foreign employees. If that sounds racist, culturist, whatever, tough; I make no apology. clark PSA: Salary <> Slavery. If you earn a salary, your employer is renting your services for 40 hours a week, not purchasing your soul. Your time is the only real finite asset that you have, and once used it can never be recovered, so don't waste it by giving it away. "Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you." Carl Sandburg (1878 - 1967) _________________________________________________________________ Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Sun Oct 6 11:20:54 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 08:59:48 -0700 From: David Thorburn Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop oppor tunities! They jsut can't help themselves... Some Democrats and other whiney liberal PC people, who want to give our country away, can't help being emotional and melodramatic. It's their nature. Unfortunately these people will not stop attacking America and it's institutions and economy until we are as poor as every other country! This is their goal! Look at 'can't spell Barbara correctly' Streisand, Jane Fonda... Look at Doug! D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Keen" To: Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 6:24 PM Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop oppor tunities! > You know I have been keeping out of this - but when you compare the > president of the US to Hitler IT REALLY SHOWS YOUR STUPIDITY.!!!!! > > Kiss off you Stupid JERK > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net] On Behalf Of the dragon > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 4:31 PM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop oppor > tunities! > > I haven't really been paying attention to this thread all that much, until I > saw Sam's name, and I thought I'd add my opinion. And it goes something > like this.... > > As long as the market economy is great in the US (which it isn't), then > spread the good fortune around. BUT, when the market starts going down > (like after we get idiots in the white house who want to play hitler), and > US people are out of jobs, it's time to close the foreign consultants down, > regardless of where they come from. I know it's cheaper to hire a foreign > consultant, and many of them are the cream of the crop, but, let's be > serious, the majority of money that is earned by these foreign consultants > does not stay in the US like it would if a US citizen were hired, it's > banked and sent home where it has 1000+% more buying power. In my opinion, > since the US economy depends on the US worker spending US money, then > companies should be hiring the US workers for positions in this country, > even if it means paying a premium. Yes, the economy in this country is > somewhat driven by supply and demand (if you discount telecommunications and > the oil industry), but, once again, we need US workers to keep the US > economy alive. > > I once worked for a software development company which played the H1B game, > and they'd advertise for employees, and then never hire qualified applicants > because they wanted to keep their foreign employees. > > If that sounds racist, culturist, whatever, tough; I make no apology. > > clark > > > > PSA: Salary <> Slavery. If you earn a salary, your employer is renting your > services for 40 hours a week, not purchasing your soul. Your time is the > only real finite asset that you have, and once used it can never be > recovered, so don't waste it by giving it away. > > "Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you > have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. > Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you." > > Carl Sandburg > (1878 - 1967) > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 09:27:54 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 07:56:52 -0600 From: Russ Wulfson Subject: Re: I'm not UNSUBSCRIBING We are quite an interesting bunch We start off with a question Answer the question Decide the question should be somewhere else and not dealt with here Spend more time deciding if we should answer the question than the answer took End up in a political turmoil over being Politically Correct or a massive world conspiracy to eliminate ourselves from the workforce, to a racially loaded, xenophobic name calling cat fight Then people start removing themselves from the list. We really are quite humorous. I stand by my original statement - if you don't like the question ignore it. From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 11:07:36 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 08:40:59 -0700 From: Ken Boettger Subject: Re: An information pirate attempts to develop opportunities! Just look atthis SPAM I received! Actually, I read in the Seattle times last year about GM 'outsourcing' 10,000 IT jobs to India. Those jobs alone from one company represent nearly one percentage point of the employment rate of just about any state in the US. Cornell did a study over a year ago published in CNN that addressed corporate america's outsourcing to other nations. Same thing is happening with Boeing in China. Even Levi admitted that it can no longer compete without taking its labor outside America to make jeans. Our once 'American' corporations have gone from being proud of our products where other nations come to buy them (aka, quality)... to behind door deals where corporate execs coerce other nations to buy 'their' products if they ship labor to their countries and give the client nation jobs. A net lose of quality and social integrity (as explained below). The net effect, with jobs and products produced in another country, one wonders if it would be correct to drop the 'America' and just call them corporations... or... maybe something like WORLD Corporations! I think you get the picture. World Trade implies (theoretically) that poor countries will rise from poverty. But what we are not told is that we have an equilibrium there.... where there is a rise, there is also a fall. ALL systems work this way... even supply and demand.Those nations at the top will move CLOSER to poverity. And that is what we are seeing here in the US. Only the corporate elite prosper (by selling off the inherit social integrity in the form of jobs). Corporate 'America' no longer has soverignity to Americans. And until we address that, and the other issues there, America will continue its downward spiral. Here is another one for you... America and American business... always had a moral code where competition was good. Monopolies are bad. Competition is what drove progress and better products. Small business wat the norm. So, my question to you, what is World Trade where all countries, in essence, become one? Our emphasis has gone from small companies to large corporations... which necessarily implies less competition and that everything is done the same. I don't see these small shops mentioned in the previous post as much of a problem as the larger one I am addressing here. MOST of the jobs are being lost right under our noses. And it is not just IT anymore. Nor is it limited to America. Engineers and most any non-tangible trade (where you do not have your hand in making a tangible product) are easily shipped from our largest most successful countries. These countries SHOULD be rewarded with those jobs as they 'were' the advanced societies that showed the rest of the world how it was suppose to be done. Unfortunately, corporate execs are no better than two-bit car salesmens and will sell out nation soverignity along with a system of social progress that has defined our world for the last several thousand years. Corporations know that other nations are a ready source of cheap labor that can be whipped up to work long hours. Greed rather than social progress drives the current state. Once the jobs and opportunities arise within that country, it wakes up the local businessmen. And so we have these smaller shops at play. World Trade is at the root of all this. It is in conflict with the entire precept of competition and diversity within nations, work forces and business. World Trade in itself is not bad... but when a corporate coerced government abuses it... changes it into a system of world domination... then we have a problem. Our consolidation of small businesses into larger ones will ultimately drive the same with our governments. World Trade will only work if it is married with a true concern and interest in creating the laws to break up large corporations and support small business... including consultants. -Ken >>> thorburn@CONL.NET 10/01/02 08:15PM >>> To the list: This SPAM from an offshore outsourcing pirate, Mr. Reddy, arrived in my email today. I just wanted to send this to the list, and selected media to make sure that other American IT Professionals are aware that people like this, who represent offshore development centers full of hordes of slaves, working in countries where copyright and patent laws are not respected, and, where most toil in slave programming mills for little more than their kids make rolling cigarettes are after your jobs and career. Their aim is to put us out of business and replace us with their IT slaves. At least the imported H1B's spend money and pay taxes while they are here! H1B's are people, but foreign outsourcers are pirates! Write your elected officials and demand that they put a stop to offshore outsourcing now! Do you want your credit, personnel, financial, and medical information being programmed, stored, copied, communicated, and manipulated by these pirates and by their slaves in foreign countries? How can we expect our governments laws, which are meant to protect us, to possibly be enforced in these foreign counties known to be havens for espionage and piracy? The time to act is now. Be watchful and aware of the threat to your career, your credit rating, and your privacy. Regards, David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elite Outsource International, Inc" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:27 PM Subject: Introducing - Elite Outsource International, Inc > Hi, > > This is Srinivas Reddy from Elite Outsource International, Inc. I am writing > this letter to introduce myself and Elite's services of Software > Development, > Staff Augmentation (Consulting & Staffing), Project Management > (On Site & Off Shore) and outsourcing services, that we offer in the > Information Technology Industry. > > Please note that, I am well aware of the current market situation and my > goal is to better utilize this quiet time to get to know each other and > establish a mutual business understanding, that can be fruitful and > beneficial to both our firms, towards your any and all future needs in the > IT Discipline. > > I take this opportunity to bring to your attention of Elite Outsource > International, Inc. A company that provides technology-driven services > dedicated to helping its customers deploy, maximize, and manage Information > Systems Solutions. Elite Outsource International, Inc is one of America's > fastest growing and dependable Private Company. Learn more about Elite > Outsource International at www.eliteoutsource.com. > > I look forward to establishing a mutually beneficial relation between us. I > request you to contact me anytime without hesitation for any and all needs > you come across in IT Industry. > > Sincerely, > > > Srinivas Reddy > General Manager. > > Elite Outsource International, Inc > Reinforcing Excellence > > 3-14, Fox Run Drive, > Plainsboro, > New Jersey - 08536 > www.eliteoutsource.com > > Phone: 609-716-7604 > Fax: 609-716-4911 > > > Under Bill s.1618 Title III passed by the 105th U.S.Congress this mail > cannot be considered > Spam as long as we include contact information and a remove link for removal > from our mailing > list. To be removed from our mailing list reply to > mailto:reddys@eliteoutsource.com?Subject=Remove > with 'REMOVE' in the subject heading and your email address in the body. > Include complete address > and/or domain/aliases to be removed. If you still get the mails, please call > us at the numbers given > above. > > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 12:06:46 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:41:13 -0400 From: Ven Garlapati Subject: Re: An information pirate attempts to develop opportunities! Just look atthis SPAM I received! This is all because of greed of stockholders (who owns US companies), and push the management to reduce the cost, there by to increase their stock prices, to make a quick buck. Now the question we should ask is, who owns majority of these stocks - we Americans? Thanks, Ven Garlapati -----Original Message----- From: Ken Boettger [mailto:BoettgeK@CWU.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 11:41 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: An information pirate attempts to develop opportunities! Just look atthis SPAM I received! Actually, I read in the Seattle times last year about GM 'outsourcing' 10,000 IT jobs to India. Those jobs alone from one company represent nearly one percentage point of the employment rate of just about any state in the US. Cornell did a study over a year ago published in CNN that addressed corporate america's outsourcing to other nations. Same thing is happening with Boeing in China. Even Levi admitted that it can no longer compete without taking its labor outside America to make jeans. Our once 'American' corporations have gone from being proud of our products where other nations come to buy them (aka, quality)... to behind door deals where corporate execs coerce other nations to buy 'their' products if they ship labor to their countries and give the client nation jobs. A net lose of quality and social integrity (as explained below). The net effect, with jobs and products produced in another country, one wonders if it would be correct to drop the 'America' and just call them corporations... or... maybe something like WORLD Corporations! I think you get the picture. World Trade implies (theoretically) that poor countries will rise from poverty. But what we are not told is that we have an equilibrium there.... where there is a rise, there is also a fall. ALL systems work this way... even supply and demand.Those nations at the top will move CLOSER to poverity. And that is what we are seeing here in the US. Only the corporate elite prosper (by selling off the inherit social integrity in the form of jobs). Corporate 'America' no longer has soverignity to Americans. And until we address that, and the other issues there, America will continue its downward spiral. Here is another one for you... America and American business... always had a moral code where competition was good. Monopolies are bad. Competition is what drove progress and better products. Small business wat the norm. So, my question to you, what is World Trade where all countries, in essence, become one? Our emphasis has gone from small companies to large corporations... which necessarily implies less competition and that everything is done the same. I don't see these small shops mentioned in the previous post as much of a problem as the larger one I am addressing here. MOST of the jobs are being lost right under our noses. And it is not just IT anymore. Nor is it limited to America. Engineers and most any non-tangible trade (where you do not have your hand in making a tangible product) are easily shipped from our largest most successful countries. These countries SHOULD be rewarded with those jobs as they 'were' the advanced societies that showed the rest of the world how it was suppose to be done. Unfortunately, corporate execs are no better than two-bit car salesmens and will sell out nation soverignity along with a system of social progress that has defined our world for the last several thousand years. Corporations know that other nations are a ready source of cheap labor that can be whipped up to work long hours. Greed rather than social progress drives the current state. Once the jobs and opportunities arise within that country, it wakes up the local businessmen. And so we have these smaller shops at play. World Trade is at the root of all this. It is in conflict with the entire precept of competition and diversity within nations, work forces and business. World Trade in itself is not bad... but when a corporate coerced government abuses it... changes it into a system of world domination... then we have a problem. Our consolidation of small businesses into larger ones will ultimately drive the same with our governments. World Trade will only work if it is married with a true concern and interest in creating the laws to break up large corporations and support small business... including consultants. -Ken >>> thorburn@CONL.NET 10/01/02 08:15PM >>> To the list: This SPAM from an offshore outsourcing pirate, Mr. Reddy, arrived in my email today. I just wanted to send this to the list, and selected media to make sure that other American IT Professionals are aware that people like this, who represent offshore development centers full of hordes of slaves, working in countries where copyright and patent laws are not respected, and, where most toil in slave programming mills for little more than their kids make rolling cigarettes are after your jobs and career. Their aim is to put us out of business and replace us with their IT slaves. At least the imported H1B's spend money and pay taxes while they are here! H1B's are people, but foreign outsourcers are pirates! Write your elected officials and demand that they put a stop to offshore outsourcing now! Do you want your credit, personnel, financial, and medical information being programmed, stored, copied, communicated, and manipulated by these pirates and by their slaves in foreign countries? How can we expect our governments laws, which are meant to protect us, to possibly be enforced in these foreign counties known to be havens for espionage and piracy? The time to act is now. Be watchful and aware of the threat to your career, your credit rating, and your privacy. Regards, David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elite Outsource International, Inc" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:27 PM Subject: Introducing - Elite Outsource International, Inc > Hi, > > This is Srinivas Reddy from Elite Outsource International, Inc. I am writing > this letter to introduce myself and Elite's services of Software > Development, > Staff Augmentation (Consulting & Staffing), Project Management > (On Site & Off Shore) and outsourcing services, that we offer in the > Information Technology Industry. > > Please note that, I am well aware of the current market situation and my > goal is to better utilize this quiet time to get to know each other and > establish a mutual business understanding, that can be fruitful and > beneficial to both our firms, towards your any and all future needs in the > IT Discipline. > > I take this opportunity to bring to your attention of Elite Outsource > International, Inc. A company that provides technology-driven services > dedicated to helping its customers deploy, maximize, and manage Information > Systems Solutions. Elite Outsource International, Inc is one of America's > fastest growing and dependable Private Company. Learn more about Elite > Outsource International at www.eliteoutsource.com. > > I look forward to establishing a mutually beneficial relation between us. I > request you to contact me anytime without hesitation for any and all needs > you come across in IT Industry. > > Sincerely, > > > Srinivas Reddy > General Manager. > > Elite Outsource International, Inc > Reinforcing Excellence > > 3-14, Fox Run Drive, > Plainsboro, > New Jersey - 08536 > www.eliteoutsource.com > > Phone: 609-716-7604 > Fax: 609-716-4911 > > > Under Bill s.1618 Title III passed by the 105th U.S.Congress this mail > cannot be considered > Spam as long as we include contact information and a remove link for removal > from our mailing > list. To be removed from our mailing list reply to > mailto:reddys@eliteoutsource.com?Subject=Remove > with 'REMOVE' in the subject heading and your email address in the body. > Include complete address > and/or domain/aliases to be removed. If you still get the mails, please call > us at the numbers given > above. > > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 14:32:47 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:14:50 -0500 From: "Knapp, Richard" Subject: Re: An information pirate attempts to develop opportunities! Just look atthis SPAM I received! I tried. Honest, I really tried to keep out of this. But I can no longer hold my peace. I am replying to your message, Ken but I could have replied to several others and said the same thing. What is being left out of the analysis here is that it is not stockholders or the nations that are at fault. It is the wealthy elites that control the governments, their militaries and the propaganda machine popularly known as the media that are benefiting from GATT and NAFTA and small wars all over the world. How are ya' gonna stop 'em? They hold all the cards. They have been fighting this battle, and learning from their mistakes, for centuries, not decades. They have established institutions for perpetuating this knowledge. There are, naturally, limits to the 'expenses' an economy can sustain. We pay for the wars and the R&D that went into the equipment that facilitates the worldwide wholesale slaughter of innocents but if we have lost our jobs or have had our salaries 'downgraded', we won't be able to cough up the bucks at tax time. So, they still have one important lesson to learn. While the greed of these elites and the tactics to which they are willing to descend may be without limits, there is a limit, a physical limit, to what the system will bear. I predict that they are incapable of recognizing that limit and of restraining themselves in time to prevent a universal collapse, under its own weight, of the system. Sorry for the rant. Richard Knapp Database Programmer/Analyst Administrative Systems Project University of Missouri System 573-884-3157 knappr@umsystem.edu -----Original Message----- From: Ken Boettger [mailto:BoettgeK@CWU.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 10:41 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: An information pirate attempts to develop opportunities! Just look atthis SPAM I received! Actually, I read in the Seattle times last year about GM 'outsourcing' 10,000 IT jobs to India. Those jobs alone from one company represent nearly one percentage point of the employment rate of just about any state in the US. Cornell did a study over a year ago published in CNN that addressed corporate america's outsourcing to other nations. Same thing is happening with Boeing in China. Even Levi admitted that it can no longer compete without taking its labor outside America to make jeans. Our once 'American' corporations have gone from being proud of our products where other nations come to buy them (aka, quality)... to behind door deals where corporate execs coerce other nations to buy 'their' products if they ship labor to their countries and give the client nation jobs. A net lose of quality and social integrity (as explained below). The net effect, with jobs and products produced in another country, one wonders if it would be correct to drop the 'America' and just call them corporations... or... maybe something like WORLD Corporations! I think you get the picture. World Trade implies (theoretically) that poor countries will rise from poverty. But what we are not told is that we have an equilibrium there.... where there is a rise, there is also a fall. ALL systems work this way... even supply and demand.Those nations at the top will move CLOSER to poverity. And that is what we are seeing here in the US. Only the corporate elite prosper (by selling off the inherit social integrity in the form of jobs). Corporate 'America' no longer has soverignity to Americans. And until we address that, and the other issues there, America will continue its downward spiral. Here is another one for you... America and American business... always had a moral code where competition was good. Monopolies are bad. Competition is what drove progress and better products. Small business wat the norm. So, my question to you, what is World Trade where all countries, in essence, become one? Our emphasis has gone from small companies to large corporations... which necessarily implies less competition and that everything is done the same. I don't see these small shops mentioned in the previous post as much of a problem as the larger one I am addressing here. MOST of the jobs are being lost right under our noses. And it is not just IT anymore. Nor is it limited to America. Engineers and most any non-tangible trade (where you do not have your hand in making a tangible product) are easily shipped from our largest most successful countries. These countries SHOULD be rewarded with those jobs as they 'were' the advanced societies that showed the rest of the world how it was suppose to be done. Unfortunately, corporate execs are no better than two-bit car salesmens and will sell out nation soverignity along with a system of social progress that has defined our world for the last several thousand years. Corporations know that other nations are a ready source of cheap labor that can be whipped up to work long hours. Greed rather than social progress drives the current state. Once the jobs and opportunities arise within that country, it wakes up the local businessmen. And so we have these smaller shops at play. World Trade is at the root of all this. It is in conflict with the entire precept of competition and diversity within nations, work forces and business. World Trade in itself is not bad... but when a corporate coerced government abuses it... changes it into a system of world domination... then we have a problem. Our consolidation of small businesses into larger ones will ultimately drive the same with our governments. World Trade will only work if it is married with a true concern and interest in creating the laws to break up large corporations and support small business... including consultants. -Ken >>> thorburn@CONL.NET 10/01/02 08:15PM >>> To the list: This SPAM from an offshore outsourcing pirate, Mr. Reddy, arrived in my email today. I just wanted to send this to the list, and selected media to make sure that other American IT Professionals are aware that people like this, who represent offshore development centers full of hordes of slaves, working in countries where copyright and patent laws are not respected, and, where most toil in slave programming mills for little more than their kids make rolling cigarettes are after your jobs and career. Their aim is to put us out of business and replace us with their IT slaves. At least the imported H1B's spend money and pay taxes while they are here! H1B's are people, but foreign outsourcers are pirates! Write your elected officials and demand that they put a stop to offshore outsourcing now! Do you want your credit, personnel, financial, and medical information being programmed, stored, copied, communicated, and manipulated by these pirates and by their slaves in foreign countries? How can we expect our governments laws, which are meant to protect us, to possibly be enforced in these foreign counties known to be havens for espionage and piracy? The time to act is now. Be watchful and aware of the threat to your career, your credit rating, and your privacy. Regards, David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elite Outsource International, Inc" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:27 PM Subject: Introducing - Elite Outsource International, Inc > Hi, > > This is Srinivas Reddy from Elite Outsource International, Inc. I am writing > this letter to introduce myself and Elite's services of Software > Development, > Staff Augmentation (Consulting & Staffing), Project Management > (On Site & Off Shore) and outsourcing services, that we offer in the > Information Technology Industry. > > Please note that, I am well aware of the current market situation and my > goal is to better utilize this quiet time to get to know each other and > establish a mutual business understanding, that can be fruitful and > beneficial to both our firms, towards your any and all future needs in the > IT Discipline. > > I take this opportunity to bring to your attention of Elite Outsource > International, Inc. A company that provides technology-driven services > dedicated to helping its customers deploy, maximize, and manage Information > Systems Solutions. Elite Outsource International, Inc is one of America's > fastest growing and dependable Private Company. Learn more about Elite > Outsource International at www.eliteoutsource.com. > > I look forward to establishing a mutually beneficial relation between us. I > request you to contact me anytime without hesitation for any and all needs > you come across in IT Industry. > > Sincerely, > > > Srinivas Reddy > General Manager. > > Elite Outsource International, Inc > Reinforcing Excellence > > 3-14, Fox Run Drive, > Plainsboro, > New Jersey - 08536 > www.eliteoutsource.com > > Phone: 609-716-7604 > Fax: 609-716-4911 > > > Under Bill s.1618 Title III passed by the 105th U.S.Congress this mail > cannot be considered > Spam as long as we include contact information and a remove link for removal > from our mailing > list. To be removed from our mailing list reply to > mailto:reddys@eliteoutsource.com?Subject=Remove > with 'REMOVE' in the subject heading and your email address in the body. > Include complete address > and/or domain/aliases to be removed. If you still get the mails, please call > us at the numbers given > above. > > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 11:30:54 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 08:51:00 -0700 From: kadevari madhukethan Subject: hello __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 11:35:15 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:05:51 -0700 From: kadevari madhukethan Subject: Conversion from legacy system Hello SQR Gurus, I am working on conversion of data from legacy system into peoplesoft systems and what i thought of using SQR for conversion or Interface for exracting data from legacy system.Now my question is can any of the gurus share there idea as how to begin writing SQR Conversion program or any sample conversion program is greatly appreciated to my email OR is there any other tool used in conversion or interface instead of SQR to make my job easy.please help me ASAP. THANKS IN ADVANCE Madhu __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 11:41:49 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:12:57 -0400 From: "Christenson, Amy" Subject: Re: Conversion from legacy system Uh Oh. -----Original Message----- From: kadevari madhukethan [mailto:madoo6@YAHOO.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 12:06 PM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Conversion from legacy system Hello SQR Gurus, I am working on conversion of data from legacy system into peoplesoft systems and what i thought of using SQR for conversion or Interface for exracting data from legacy system.Now my question is can any of the gurus share there idea as how to begin writing SQR Conversion program or any sample conversion program is greatly appreciated to my email OR is there any other tool used in conversion or interface instead of SQR to make my job easy.please help me ASAP. THANKS IN ADVANCE Madhu __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 11:42:41 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:20:27 -0700 From: Sam Spritzer Subject: Re: Conversion from legacy system Madhu, Why not peruse the Peoplesoft delivered programs. Research them; see how they are set up and work. That is how we all learned! SQRly yours, Sam --- kadevari madhukethan wrote: > Hello SQR Gurus, > > I am working on conversion of data from legacy system > into peoplesoft > systems and what i thought of using SQR for conversion > or Interface > for exracting data from legacy system.Now my question > is can any of > the gurus share there idea as how to begin writing SQR > Conversion > program or any sample conversion program is greatly > appreciated to my > email OR is there any other tool used in conversion or > interface > instead of SQR to make my job easy.please help me > ASAP. > > THANKS IN ADVANCE > > Madhu > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com ===== ************************************************************ "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find nothing." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 12:29:31 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:54:35 -0700 From: Allen Cunningham Subject: Re: Conversion from legacy system Watch out! The attack dogs are salivating and ready to pounce!! -----Original Message----- From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of kadevari madhukethan Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:06 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Conversion from legacy system Hello SQR Gurus, I am working on conversion of data from legacy system into peoplesoft systems and what i thought of using SQR for conversion or Interface for exracting data from legacy system.Now my question is can any of the gurus share there idea as how to begin writing SQR Conversion program or any sample conversion program is greatly appreciated to my email OR is there any other tool used in conversion or interface instead of SQR to make my job easy.please help me ASAP. THANKS IN ADVANCE Madhu __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 13:39:51 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:11:12 -0600 From: Alan Ljungberg Subject: Re: Conversion from legacy system What is your source database and what is you target? For example are you going from DB2 to Oracle? Also what versions of DBs and PeopleSoft are we talking? "Christenson, Amy" To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Conversion from legacy system Sent by: Expire On: "Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language" 10/02/2002 10:12 AM Please respond to sqr-users Uh Oh. -----Original Message----- From: kadevari madhukethan [mailto:madoo6@YAHOO.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 12:06 PM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Conversion from legacy system Hello SQR Gurus, I am working on conversion of data from legacy system into peoplesoft systems and what i thought of using SQR for conversion or Interface for exracting data from legacy system.Now my question is can any of the gurus share there idea as how to begin writing SQR Conversion program or any sample conversion program is greatly appreciated to my email OR is there any other tool used in conversion or interface instead of SQR to make my job easy.please help me ASAP. THANKS IN ADVANCE Madhu __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 13:44:49 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:25:54 -0500 From: "Sengupta, Rajib (CC-Contractor)" Subject: Re: Conversion from legacy system There are couple of things which you have to decide before going with this: The approach will be different if you are moving from one database/platform to another database/platform then between the same platform. Approach a. a. Moving from legacy(I assume this is IBM mainframe or OS/390 and database DB2 or file system VSAM ) to Peoplesoft in UNIX/ORACLE In that case I guess you will not have the SQR engine to run in mainframe. Then what you have to do is to create your mainframe program , cobol or any other mainframe tools to create text files of data from DB2 or VSAM. Then transfer it to Unix. Then write your SQR program to upload it. This SQR program will have all the conversion rules. Say for e.g in Psoft HRMS- a company which use SSN number for employee identification - they have to change it to Peoplesoft ID by using some logic. Similarly in financial say some company have do not have SETID - in that case they have to create the SETID to craete data in Peoplesoft tables. And all this will be done in the SQR program. So there is not one single SQR program which can do this. There are couple of peoplesoft delivered SQRs with different module which you can use as template. b. Moving from legacy to same platform - i.e peoplesoft will be installed in same platform i.e say OS/390 and database DB2 In that case you might right one SQR to do both task- i.e read from old files /tables and write it into new peoplesoft tables. This will require running the SQR in the same LPAR of the mainframe. Though the better idea will be to craete two different programs - first program will dump all data into a text file. The second SQR will do the upload with the conversion. I have tried to give an idea how it works- the conversion of data is a very imporatnt project while implementing peoplesoft and this can't be done just by one people or sqr - it requires a whole conversion group which should consists of analysts from old legacy system who knows the existing system well along with peoplesoft functional and technical people. The technology of choosing SQR or App.engine or cobol is not the issue , the issue is defining the business process and conversion process first . Thanks, Rajib Sengupta Systems Analyst ConAgra Business Systems Peoplesoft AR and Order Management 222 South 15th St,North Tower(CT-930) Omaha NE 68102 Phone: (402) 595-7928,Fax: (402) 595-7024 -----Original Message----- From: kadevari madhukethan [mailto:madoo6@YAHOO.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 11:06 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Conversion from legacy system Hello SQR Gurus, I am working on conversion of data from legacy system into peoplesoft systems and what i thought of using SQR for conversion or Interface for exracting data from legacy system.Now my question is can any of the gurus share there idea as how to begin writing SQR Conversion program or any sample conversion program is greatly appreciated to my email OR is there any other tool used in conversion or interface instead of SQR to make my job easy.please help me ASAP. THANKS IN ADVANCE Madhu __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 14:12:40 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:42:18 -0600 From: "Turner, Ivan" Subject: Re: Conversion from legacy system One time loads are loaded using the programming language supplied with your db product (e.g. PL/SQL) Periodic or daily loads are better suited for SQR. -----Original Message----- From: Allen Cunningham [mailto:allen.cunningham@SONOMA.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 12:55 PM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Conversion from legacy system Watch out! The attack dogs are salivating and ready to pounce!! -----Original Message----- From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net]On Behalf Of kadevari madhukethan Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:06 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Conversion from legacy system Hello SQR Gurus, I am working on conversion of data from legacy system into peoplesoft systems and what i thought of using SQR for conversion or Interface for exracting data from legacy system.Now my question is can any of the gurus share there idea as how to begin writing SQR Conversion program or any sample conversion program is greatly appreciated to my email OR is there any other tool used in conversion or interface instead of SQR to make my job easy.please help me ASAP. THANKS IN ADVANCE Madhu __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 14:13:47 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:47:41 -0500 From: "Knapp, Richard" Subject: Re: Conversion from legacy system You don't need to write two different programs in the case of different databases if the 'remote' db supports ODBC. The 'remote' db doesn't need an SQR engine. See the -DB argument in the begin-select documentation. The most important things that need to be decided ahead of time are the 'functional' questions, e.g. how do the legacy codes convert to PS? The users need to do massive amounts of headwork (planning) before the technical side even picks up a pencil. Of course, they won't even be aware of the issues without the help of the techies. Richard Knapp Database Programmer/Analyst Administrative Systems Project University of Missouri System 573-884-3157 knappr@umsystem.edu -----Original Message----- From: Sengupta, Rajib (CC-Contractor) [mailto:Rajib.Sengupta@CONAGRAFOODS.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 1:26 PM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Conversion from legacy system There are couple of things which you have to decide before going with this: The approach will be different if you are moving from one database/platform to another database/platform then between the same platform. Approach a. a. Moving from legacy(I assume this is IBM mainframe or OS/390 and database DB2 or file system VSAM ) to Peoplesoft in UNIX/ORACLE In that case I guess you will not have the SQR engine to run in mainframe. Then what you have to do is to create your mainframe program , cobol or any other mainframe tools to create text files of data from DB2 or VSAM. Then transfer it to Unix. Then write your SQR program to upload it. This SQR program will have all the conversion rules. Say for e.g in Psoft HRMS- a company which use SSN number for employee identification - they have to change it to Peoplesoft ID by using some logic. Similarly in financial say some company have do not have SETID - in that case they have to create the SETID to craete data in Peoplesoft tables. And all this will be done in the SQR program. So there is not one single SQR program which can do this. There are couple of peoplesoft delivered SQRs with different module which you can use as template. b. Moving from legacy to same platform - i.e peoplesoft will be installed in same platform i.e say OS/390 and database DB2 In that case you might right one SQR to do both task- i.e read from old files /tables and write it into new peoplesoft tables. This will require running the SQR in the same LPAR of the mainframe. Though the better idea will be to craete two different programs - first program will dump all data into a text file. The second SQR will do the upload with the conversion. I have tried to give an idea how it works- the conversion of data is a very imporatnt project while implementing peoplesoft and this can't be done just by one people or sqr - it requires a whole conversion group which should consists of analysts from old legacy system who knows the existing system well along with peoplesoft functional and technical people. The technology of choosing SQR or App.engine or cobol is not the issue , the issue is defining the business process and conversion process first . Thanks, Rajib Sengupta Systems Analyst ConAgra Business Systems Peoplesoft AR and Order Management 222 South 15th St,North Tower(CT-930) Omaha NE 68102 Phone: (402) 595-7928,Fax: (402) 595-7024 -----Original Message----- From: kadevari madhukethan [mailto:madoo6@YAHOO.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 11:06 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Conversion from legacy system Hello SQR Gurus, I am working on conversion of data from legacy system into peoplesoft systems and what i thought of using SQR for conversion or Interface for exracting data from legacy system.Now my question is can any of the gurus share there idea as how to begin writing SQR Conversion program or any sample conversion program is greatly appreciated to my email OR is there any other tool used in conversion or interface instead of SQR to make my job easy.please help me ASAP. THANKS IN ADVANCE Madhu __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 15:11:05 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:35:14 -0500 From: "Sengupta, Rajib (CC-Contractor)" Subject: Re: Conversion from legacy system That's true if the two database you are talking on are somehting like SQL Server and Oracle or DB2 and Oracle in Unix only. But we had problem in doing this between DB2 in mainfarme and Oracle in Unix. It didn't worked- we tried to use tit but without result and then only we decided to go via two step process. And the two step process is always better as per my experience. Rajib Sengupta Systems Analyst ConAgra Business Systems Peoplesoft AR and Order Management 222 South 15th St,North Tower(CT-930) Omaha NE 68102 Phone: (402) 595-7928,Fax: (402) 595-7024 -----Original Message----- From: Knapp, Richard [mailto:KnappR@UMSYSTEM.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 1:48 PM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Conversion from legacy system You don't need to write two different programs in the case of different databases if the 'remote' db supports ODBC. The 'remote' db doesn't need an SQR engine. See the -DB argument in the begin-select documentation. The most important things that need to be decided ahead of time are the 'functional' questions, e.g. how do the legacy codes convert to PS? The users need to do massive amounts of headwork (planning) before the technical side even picks up a pencil. Of course, they won't even be aware of the issues without the help of the techies. Richard Knapp Database Programmer/Analyst Administrative Systems Project University of Missouri System 573-884-3157 knappr@umsystem.edu -----Original Message----- From: Sengupta, Rajib (CC-Contractor) [mailto:Rajib.Sengupta@CONAGRAFOODS.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 1:26 PM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Conversion from legacy system There are couple of things which you have to decide before going with this: The approach will be different if you are moving from one database/platform to another database/platform then between the same platform. Approach a. a. Moving from legacy(I assume this is IBM mainframe or OS/390 and database DB2 or file system VSAM ) to Peoplesoft in UNIX/ORACLE In that case I guess you will not have the SQR engine to run in mainframe. Then what you have to do is to create your mainframe program , cobol or any other mainframe tools to create text files of data from DB2 or VSAM. Then transfer it to Unix. Then write your SQR program to upload it. This SQR program will have all the conversion rules. Say for e.g in Psoft HRMS- a company which use SSN number for employee identification - they have to change it to Peoplesoft ID by using some logic. Similarly in financial say some company have do not have SETID - in that case they have to create the SETID to craete data in Peoplesoft tables. And all this will be done in the SQR program. So there is not one single SQR program which can do this. There are couple of peoplesoft delivered SQRs with different module which you can use as template. b. Moving from legacy to same platform - i.e peoplesoft will be installed in same platform i.e say OS/390 and database DB2 In that case you might right one SQR to do both task- i.e read from old files /tables and write it into new peoplesoft tables. This will require running the SQR in the same LPAR of the mainframe. Though the better idea will be to craete two different programs - first program will dump all data into a text file. The second SQR will do the upload with the conversion. I have tried to give an idea how it works- the conversion of data is a very imporatnt project while implementing peoplesoft and this can't be done just by one people or sqr - it requires a whole conversion group which should consists of analysts from old legacy system who knows the existing system well along with peoplesoft functional and technical people. The technology of choosing SQR or App.engine or cobol is not the issue , the issue is defining the business process and conversion process first . Thanks, Rajib Sengupta Systems Analyst ConAgra Business Systems Peoplesoft AR and Order Management 222 South 15th St,North Tower(CT-930) Omaha NE 68102 Phone: (402) 595-7928,Fax: (402) 595-7024 -----Original Message----- From: kadevari madhukethan [mailto:madoo6@YAHOO.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 11:06 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Conversion from legacy system Hello SQR Gurus, I am working on conversion of data from legacy system into peoplesoft systems and what i thought of using SQR for conversion or Interface for exracting data from legacy system.Now my question is can any of the gurus share there idea as how to begin writing SQR Conversion program or any sample conversion program is greatly appreciated to my email OR is there any other tool used in conversion or interface instead of SQR to make my job easy.please help me ASAP. THANKS IN ADVANCE Madhu __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 16:23:34 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:18:33 -0400 From: Chris Bennett Subject: Re: Conversion from legacy system SQR is indeed what most people use for this purpose. As someone else suggested, reading through the supplied PeopleSoft SQRs is a good way to get ideas on how to do what you want. The biggest problem with loading data from SQRs is that you need to do a lot of analysis to make sure you are inserting the proper values in each field, but this approach does give you the most flexibility. As far your question about other tools that could be used instead of SQR, I would suggest looking at the delivered Import Manager is you are using 7.x. The nice thing about Import Manager is that it performs much of the data validation for you. As far as I can tell, it has disappeared into 8.x though. What PeopleSoft would prefer you do at this point is write an App Engine that uses PeopleCode's new ability to read files, and then you could store the data using the new component interfaces. This would be really great in that it would completely take care of data validation for you, but it is not the easiest thing in the world to do. I have yet to see anyone actually use this approach for importing data from a legacy system, though. But you could be the first :) There is PeopleSoft mailing list you can ask for help on if you decide to investigate this. Overall I'd suggest SQR for most cases. Its quick and easy. Unless you're loading data into one of the really complicated data structures in PeopleSoft-- then I'd investigate the App Engine/Component Interface route. Chris P.S. Don't worry about what Allen said... while there were recently a few rather strange posts that were a bit over the top, some people apparently just have trouble dealing with constructive criticism and their injuries are largely imagined. On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, kadevari madhukethan wrote: > Hello SQR Gurus, > > I am working on conversion of data from legacy system > into peoplesoft > systems and what i thought of using SQR for conversion > or Interface > for exracting data from legacy system.Now my question > is can any of > the gurus share there idea as how to begin writing SQR > Conversion > program or any sample conversion program is greatly > appreciated to my > email OR is there any other tool used in conversion or > interface > instead of SQR to make my job easy.please help me > ASAP. > > THANKS IN ADVANCE > > Madhu > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 13:36:02 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:16:10 -0700 From: Ken Boettger Subject: Re: An information pirate attempts to develop opportunities! Just lookatthis SPAM I received! Stock owners? No. Not the problem. We have always had corporate greed. And rightly so. There should be a emphasis to be as profitable as possible. That too drives competition. The problem is within the laws that have provided an infrastructure and, in essence, a code of conduct for corporate behavior. The people were to be given precedence. The problem is, those laws have been undermined. Primarily by legal-political-corporate interests. What has happened in America is that the will of the individual people has been subplanted by the corporate-political system in regards to our laws and legal system. Principles are no longer supported. Only the drive to make money. This in not limited to the US. I would agree however, that it ultimately is the responsibility of the people to keep a nation strong. And I would argue that the relative integrity of the individual in the US has declined with the integrity of the government. It raises the question of whether it can be stopped. It will take the willingness of a nation of people to first recognize, then stand up, tighten their belts, and subscribe to moral principles... and give those principles precedence over the mighty dollar bill. -Ken >>> VXG@CREDITACCEPTANCE.COM 10/02/02 09:41AM >>> This is all because of greed of stockholders (who owns US companies), and push the management to reduce the cost, there by to increase their stock prices, to make a quick buck. Now the question we should ask is, who owns majority of these stocks - we Americans? Thanks, Ven Garlapati -----Original Message----- From: Ken Boettger [mailto:BoettgeK@CWU.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 11:41 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: An information pirate attempts to develop opportunities! Just look atthis SPAM I received! Actually, I read in the Seattle times last year about GM 'outsourcing' 10,000 IT jobs to India. Those jobs alone from one company represent nearly one percentage point of the employment rate of just about any state in the US. Cornell did a study over a year ago published in CNN that addressed corporate america's outsourcing to other nations. Same thing is happening with Boeing in China. Even Levi admitted that it can no longer compete without taking its labor outside America to make jeans. Our once 'American' corporations have gone from being proud of our products where other nations come to buy them (aka, quality)... to behind door deals where corporate execs coerce other nations to buy 'their' products if they ship labor to their countries and give the client nation jobs. A net lose of quality and social integrity (as explained below). The net effect, with jobs and products produced in another country, one wonders if it would be correct to drop the 'America' and just call them corporations.. or... maybe something like WORLD Corporations! I think you get the picture. World Trade implies (theoretically) that poor countries will rise from poverty. But what we are not told is that we have an equilibrium there.... where there is a rise, there is also a fall. ALL systems work this way... even supply and demand.Those nations at the top will move CLOSER to poverity. And that is what we are seeing here in the US. Only the corporate elite prosper (by selling off the inherit social integrity in the form of jobs). Corporate 'America' no longer has soverignity to Americans. And until we address that, and the other issues there, America will continue its downward spiral. Here is another one for you... America and American business... always had a moral code where competition was good. Monopolies are bad. Competition is what drove progress and better products. Small business wat the norm. So, my question to you, what is World Trade where all countries, in essence, become one? Our emphasis has gone from small companies to large corporations... which necessarily implies less competition and that everything is done the same. I don't see these small shops mentioned in the previous post as much of a problem as the larger one I am addressing here. MOST of the jobs are being lost right under our noses. And it is not just IT anymore. Nor is it limited to America. Engineers and most any non-tangible trade (where you do not have your hand in making a tangible product) are easily shipped from our largest most successful countries. These countries SHOULD be rewarded with those jobs as they 'were' the advanced societies that showed the rest of the world how it was suppose to be done. Unfortunately, corporate execs are no better than two-bit car salesmens and will sell out nation soverignity along with a system of social progress that has defined our world for the last several thousand years. Corporations know that other nations are a ready source of cheap labor that can be whipped up to work long hours. Greed rather than social progress drives the current state. Once the jobs and opportunities arise within that country, it wakes up the local businessmen. And so we have these smaller shops at play. World Trade is at the root of all this. It is in conflict with the entire precept of competition and diversity within nations, work forces and business. World Trade in itself is not bad... but when a corporate coerced government abuses it... changes it into a system of world domination... then we have a problem. Our consolidation of small businesses into larger ones will ultimately drive the same with our governments. World Trade will only work if it is married with a true concern and interest in creating the laws to break up large corporations and support small business... including consultants. -Ken >>> thorburn@CONL.NET 10/01/02 08:15PM >>> To the list: This SPAM from an offshore outsourcing pirate, Mr. Reddy, arrived in my email today. I just wanted to send this to the list, and selected media to make sure that other American IT Professionals are aware that people like this, who represent offshore development centers full of hordes of slaves, working in countries where copyright and patent laws are not respected, and, where most toil in slave programming mills for little more than their kids make rolling cigarettes are after your jobs and career. Their aim is to put us out of business and replace us with their IT slaves. At least the imported H1B's spend money and pay taxes while they are here! H1B's are people, but foreign outsourcers are pirates! Write your elected officials and demand that they put a stop to offshore outsourcing now! Do you want your credit, personnel, financial, and medical information being programmed, stored, copied, communicated, and manipulated by these pirates and by their slaves in foreign countries? How can we expect our governments laws, which are meant to protect us, to possibly be enforced in these foreign counties known to be havens for espionage and piracy? The time to act is now. Be watchful and aware of the threat to your career, your credit rating, and your privacy. Regards, David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elite Outsource International, Inc" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:27 PM Subject: Introducing - Elite Outsource International, Inc > Hi, > > This is Srinivas Reddy from Elite Outsource International, Inc. I am writing > this letter to introduce myself and Elite's services of Software > Development, > Staff Augmentation (Consulting & Staffing), Project Management > (On Site & Off Shore) and outsourcing services, that we offer in the > Information Technology Industry. > > Please note that, I am well aware of the current market situation and my > goal is to better utilize this quiet time to get to know each other and > establish a mutual business understanding, that can be fruitful and > beneficial to both our firms, towards your any and all future needs in the > IT Discipline. > > I take this opportunity to bring to your attention of Elite Outsource > International, Inc. A company that provides technology-driven services > dedicated to helping its customers deploy, maximize, and manage Information > Systems Solutions. Elite Outsource International, Inc is one of America's > fastest growing and dependable Private Company. Learn more about Elite > Outsource International at www.eliteoutsource.com. > > I look forward to establishing a mutually beneficial relation between us. I > request you to contact me anytime without hesitation for any and all needs > you come across in IT Industry. > > Sincerely, > > > Srinivas Reddy > General Manager. > > Elite Outsource International, Inc > Reinforcing Excellence > > 3-14, Fox Run Drive, > Plainsboro, > New Jersey - 08536 > www.eliteoutsource.com > > Phone: 609-716-7604 > Fax: 609-716-4911 > > > Under Bill s.1618 Title III passed by the 105th U.S.Congress this mail > cannot be considered > Spam as long as we include contact information and a remove link for removal > from our mailing > list. To be removed from our mailing list reply to > mailto:reddys@eliteoutsource.com?Subject=Remove > with 'REMOVE' in the subject heading and your email address in the body. > Include complete address > and/or domain/aliases to be removed. If you still get the mails, please call > us at the numbers given > above. > > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 13:44:42 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:19:46 -0700 From: Ken Boettger Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to developopportunities! I think that is the technology workers of America (engineers, programmers, etc). I will get on it. -Ken >>> teknogeek9@YAHOO.com 10/02/02 09:16AM >>> Ken, Honeywell is just the tip of the iceberg. Who knows who else is doing it. What we really need is a special interest group powerful enough to make an impact. Heck, I bet the AFL-CIO would certainly endorse and help one! Sam --- Ken Boettger wrote: > Honeywell? Outsourcing American jobs too??? > > Thank you for making me aware of that. I will be writing them a letter and > talking to my congressman in regards to them too. > > -Ken > > >>> teknogeek9@YAHOO.com 10/02/02 05:40AM >>> > Paul, > I am not sure if you understand the content of my message. My beef is with > Corporate America more than the individual H1Bers themselves. Corporate > America is more to the blame than anything else. The H1B program was > established to address the issue of shortages of qualified programmers. But, > the H1B process is cumbersome and a royal pain in the butt to administer. > Hence, instead of being encumbered with that burden, they pass it off to the > American "subsidiaries" of offshore outsourcing companies. These companies > are > no different than the local personnel firm that serves as an "employer of > record" for many independent contractors. To me, using offshore companies to > get labor, cheap or not, is a way of circumventing the H1B process and > everything behind it. > > If Honeywell, or any other American corporation wants to hire someone from > another country, good for them! I'll applaud that effort because it levels > the > playing field. BUT, I will NOT endorse nor tolerate any efforts to exploit > loopholes in a process that was designed to be fair and equitable to all. > While it may not be illegal, its unethical, immoral and certainly goes > against > the patriotism of ones own country. For those who take advantage of > loopholes > in the process, please keep in mind Murphy's law..."what goes up, must come > down". > > Sam > > --- "O'riordan, Paul (EI05)" wrote: > > I'm not too sure that I like the tone of this string. It could be almost > > construed as imflammatory and racial and cultural predjudice. > > 1. you are assuming that everyone on the list is American or working there > > and everyone else is irrelevant. How nice of you to accept the H1Bs as > > people. > > 2. You are also forgetting that these Outsourcing companies have in the > main > > been set up by Corporate America as a means of expanding the Global economy > > and yes - getting cheaper labour. > > 3. Outsourcing occurs in almost every country in the world so I would like > > you to expand on how these places are all known to be Havens of espionage > > and piracy? > > I work for a multinational US based company with plants in over 100 > > countries where yes - they do have the audacity to employ local talent - > > and we even in Ireland are a lot cheaper than the US alternative but we > also > > are losing out to the rise in "competition" from Asia - within our own > > company, but welcome to planet earth. You wanted capitalism and all of the > > world markets opened up? Well the traffic goes both ways and you have to > > accept it. We actually market ourselves as supplying quality product as > > programmers, which is in effect cheaper in the long run to use, compared to > > using cheaper, mass-produced work which needs constant attention, over runs > > budget and deadlines and then fails to work. $80 p/hour for 8 hours is > > cheaper than $40 and hour for something that takes twice as long to > develop, > > doesn't work, is not what the customer wanted and in the end, people like > us > > get the contract to "fix" the bugs and make it work. > > I know the point you are making but please think a little bit less > > parochially - especially when using a global mailing list. > > Regards, > > Paul > > > > > > Honeywell > > > > Paul O'Riordan Honeywell Application Services > > Application Developer Industrial Park, Cork Road > > PeopleSoft Applications, Waterford Ireland > > > > +353-51-309856 > > Direct > > +353-51-309821 Fax > > +353-87-9083244 Mobile > > mailto:Paul.O'Riordan@honeywell.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sam Spritzer [mailto:teknogeek9@YAHOO.COM] > > Sent: 02 October 2002 12:29 > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > Subject: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop > > opportunities! > > > > > > Generally speaking, this does not belong here but I think some degree of > > flexibility should be allowed to post off topic discussions which can have > a > > dramatic impact on our ability to be an SQRer. For those of you who are > not > > interested, please stop here and delete this. I have added OFF-TOPIC to > the > > subject line for this reason. > > > > I agree with David. The proliferation of off-shore outsourcing has > exploded > > over the last year. My own personal experience can testify to that both > > from > > an employed and unemployed perspective. This article seems to best address > > the > > issue: > > http://www.bayarea.com/mld/siliconvalley/4154071.htm > > > > I am not sure if the feds are doing anything but keep in mind, the offshore > > companies have a headstart - they have formed American subsidiaries which > > essentially serve as nothing more than conduits to the actual transaction. > > > > I have nothing against those who work for offshore companies and I have > > worked > > alongside several. The biggest barrier, of course, is language and > culture. > > My only concern is my own livelihood as an SQRer. But, I also think it is > a > > two-edged sword. Given today's economy and changing times, I think > > contracted > > rates of $75 or more (contracting firms are excluded) is considered > > excessive. > > The laws of supply and demand require we adjust accordingly. > Unfortunately, > > many folks simply fail to see that hence, they are priced out of the > market. > > > > At this point, I am not doing anything about it. Maybe I should...or maybe > > this discussion can evolve into a more positive voice which will give more > > power to deal with the issue. Who knows...lets see where this leads. > > > > Regards, > > Sam > > > > > > --- David Thorburn wrote: > > > To the list: > > > > > > This SPAM from an offshore outsourcing pirate, Mr. Reddy, arrived in my > > > email today. > > > > > > I just wanted to send this to the list, and selected media to make sure > > that > > > other > > > American IT Professionals are aware that people like this, who represent > > > offshore > > > development centers full of hordes of slaves, working in countries where > > > copyright and > > > patent laws are not respected, and, where most toil in slave programming > > > mills for > > > little more than their kids make rolling cigarettes are after your jobs > > and > > > career. > > > > > > Their aim is to put us out of business and replace us with their IT > > slaves. > > > > > > At least the imported H1B's spend money and pay taxes while they are > here! > > > > > > H1B's are people, but foreign outsourcers are pirates! > > > > > > Write your elected officials and demand that they put a stop to offshore > > > outsourcing now! > > > > > > Do you want your credit, personnel, financial, and medical information > > being > > > programmed, stored, > > > copied, communicated, and manipulated by these pirates and by their > slaves > > > in foreign countries? > > > > > > How can we expect our governments laws, which are meant to protect us, to > > > possibly > > > be enforced in these foreign counties known to be havens for espionage > and > > > piracy? > > > > > > The time to act is now. > > > > > > Be watchful and aware of the threat to your career, your credit rating, > > and > > > your privacy. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > David > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Elite Outsource International, Inc" > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:27 PM > > > Subject: Introducing - Elite Outsource International, Inc > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > This is Srinivas Reddy from Elite Outsource International, Inc. I am > > > writing > > > > this letter to introduce myself and Elite's services of Software > > > > Development, > > > > Staff Augmentation (Consulting & Staffing), Project Management > > > > (On Site & Off Shore) and outsourcing services, that we offer in the > > > > Information Technology Industry. > > > > > > > > Please note that, I am well aware of the current market situation and > my > > > > goal is to better utilize this quiet time to get to know each other and > > > > establish a mutual business understanding, that can be fruitful and > > > > beneficial to both our firms, towards your any and all future needs in > > the > > > > IT Discipline. > > > > > > > > I take this opportunity to bring to your attention of Elite Outsource > > > > International, Inc. A company that provides technology-driven services > > > > dedicated to helping its customers deploy, maximize, and manage > > > Information > > > > Systems Solutions. Elite Outsource International, Inc is one of > > America's > > > > fastest growing and dependable Private Company. Learn more about Elite > > > > Outsource International at www.eliteoutsource.com. > > > > > > > > I look forward to establishing a mutually beneficial relation between > > us. > > > I > > > > request you to contact me anytime without hesitation for any and all > > needs > > > > you come across in IT Industry. > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > Srinivas Reddy > > > > General Manager. > > > > > > > > Elite Outsource International, Inc > > > > Reinforcing Excellence > > > > > > > > 3-14, Fox Run Drive, > > > > Plainsboro, > > > > New Jersey - 08536 > > > > www.eliteoutsource.com > > > > > > > > Phone: 609-716-7604 > > > > Fax: 609-716-4911 > > > > > > > > > > > > Under Bill s.1618 Title III passed by the 105th U.S.Congress this mail > > > > cannot be considered > > > > Spam as long as we include contact information and a remove link for > > > removal > > > > from our mailing > > > > list. To be removed from our mailing list reply to > > > > mailto:reddys@eliteoutsource.com?Subject=Remove > > > > with 'REMOVE' in the subject heading and your email address in the > body. > > > > Include complete address > > > > and/or domain/aliases to be removed. If you still get the mails, please > > > call > > > > us at the numbers given > > > > above. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > ************************************************************ > > "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find > > nothing." > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > > ===== > ************************************************************ > "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find > nothing." > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com ===== ************************************************************ "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find nothing." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 13:49:19 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:27:40 -0700 From: Sam Spritzer Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to developopportunities! Ken, If you find a special interest group...I hope you'll share so that we all can join in! Sam --- Ken Boettger wrote: > I think that is the technology workers of America (engineers, programmers, > etc). > > I will get on it. > > -Ken > > >>> teknogeek9@YAHOO.com 10/02/02 09:16AM >>> > Ken, > Honeywell is just the tip of the iceberg. Who knows who else is doing it. > What we really need is a special interest group powerful enough to make an > impact. Heck, I bet the AFL-CIO would certainly endorse and help one! > Sam > > > > --- Ken Boettger wrote: > > Honeywell? Outsourcing American jobs too??? > > > > Thank you for making me aware of that. I will be writing them a letter and > > talking to my congressman in regards to them too. > > > > -Ken > > > > >>> teknogeek9@YAHOO.com 10/02/02 05:40AM >>> > > Paul, > > I am not sure if you understand the content of my message. My beef is with > > Corporate America more than the individual H1Bers themselves. Corporate > > America is more to the blame than anything else. The H1B program was > > established to address the issue of shortages of qualified programmers. > But, > > the H1B process is cumbersome and a royal pain in the butt to administer. > > Hence, instead of being encumbered with that burden, they pass it off to > the > > American "subsidiaries" of offshore outsourcing companies. These companies > > are > > no different than the local personnel firm that serves as an "employer of > > record" for many independent contractors. To me, using offshore companies > to > > get labor, cheap or not, is a way of circumventing the H1B process and > > everything behind it. > > > > If Honeywell, or any other American corporation wants to hire someone from > > another country, good for them! I'll applaud that effort because it levels > > the > > playing field. BUT, I will NOT endorse nor tolerate any efforts to exploit > > loopholes in a process that was designed to be fair and equitable to all. > > While it may not be illegal, its unethical, immoral and certainly goes > > against > > the patriotism of ones own country. For those who take advantage of > > loopholes > > in the process, please keep in mind Murphy's law..."what goes up, must come > > down". > > > > Sam > > > > --- "O'riordan, Paul (EI05)" wrote: > > > I'm not too sure that I like the tone of this string. It could be almost > > > construed as imflammatory and racial and cultural predjudice. > > > 1. you are assuming that everyone on the list is American or working > there > > > and everyone else is irrelevant. How nice of you to accept the H1Bs as > > > people. > > > 2. You are also forgetting that these Outsourcing companies have in the > > main > > > been set up by Corporate America as a means of expanding the Global > economy > > > and yes - getting cheaper labour. > > > 3. Outsourcing occurs in almost every country in the world so I would > like > > > you to expand on how these places are all known to be Havens of espionage > > > and piracy? > > > I work for a multinational US based company with plants in over 100 > > > countries where yes - they do have the audacity to employ local talent - > > > and we even in Ireland are a lot cheaper than the US alternative but we > > also > > > are losing out to the rise in "competition" from Asia - within our own > > > company, but welcome to planet earth. You wanted capitalism and all of > the > > > world markets opened up? Well the traffic goes both ways and you have to > > > accept it. We actually market ourselves as supplying quality product as > > > programmers, which is in effect cheaper in the long run to use, compared > to > > > using cheaper, mass-produced work which needs constant attention, over > runs > > > budget and deadlines and then fails to work. $80 p/hour for 8 hours is > > > cheaper than $40 and hour for something that takes twice as long to > > develop, > > > doesn't work, is not what the customer wanted and in the end, people like > > us > > > get the contract to "fix" the bugs and make it work. > > > I know the point you are making but please think a little bit less > > > parochially - especially when using a global mailing list. > > > Regards, > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > Honeywell > > > > > > Paul O'Riordan Honeywell Application Services > > > Application Developer Industrial Park, Cork Road > > > PeopleSoft Applications, Waterford Ireland > > > > > > +353-51-309856 > > > Direct > > > +353-51-309821 Fax > > > +353-87-9083244 Mobile > > > mailto:Paul.O'Riordan@honeywell.com > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Sam Spritzer [mailto:teknogeek9@YAHOO.COM] > > > Sent: 02 October 2002 12:29 > > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > > Subject: OFF-TOPIC Re: An information pirate attempts to develop > > > opportunities! > > > > > > > > > Generally speaking, this does not belong here but I think some degree of > > > flexibility should be allowed to post off topic discussions which can > have > > a > > > dramatic impact on our ability to be an SQRer. For those of you who are > > not > > > interested, please stop here and delete this. I have added OFF-TOPIC to > > the > > > subject line for this reason. > > > > > > I agree with David. The proliferation of off-shore outsourcing has > > exploded > > > over the last year. My own personal experience can testify to that both > > > from > > > an employed and unemployed perspective. This article seems to best > address > > > the > > > issue: > > > http://www.bayarea.com/mld/siliconvalley/4154071.htm > > > > > > I am not sure if the feds are doing anything but keep in mind, the > offshore > > > companies have a headstart - they have formed American subsidiaries which > > > essentially serve as nothing more than conduits to the actual > transaction. > > > > > > I have nothing against those who work for offshore companies and I have > > > worked > > > alongside several. The biggest barrier, of course, is language and > > culture. > > > My only concern is my own livelihood as an SQRer. But, I also think it > is > > a > > > two-edged sword. Given today's economy and changing times, I think > > > contracted > > > rates of $75 or more (contracting firms are excluded) is considered > > > excessive. > > > The laws of supply and demand require we adjust accordingly. > > Unfortunately, > > > many folks simply fail to see that hence, they are priced out of the > > market. > > > > > > At this point, I am not doing anything about it. Maybe I should...or > maybe > > > this discussion can evolve into a more positive voice which will give > more > > > power to deal with the issue. Who knows...lets see where this leads. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Sam > > > > > > > > > --- David Thorburn wrote: > > > > To the list: > > > > > > > > This SPAM from an offshore outsourcing pirate, Mr. Reddy, arrived in my > > > > email today. > > > > > > > > I just wanted to send this to the list, and selected media to make sure > > > that > > > > other > > > > American IT Professionals are aware that people like this, who > represent > > > > offshore > > > > development centers full of hordes of slaves, working in countries > where > > > > copyright and > > > > patent laws are not respected, and, where most toil in slave > programming > > > > mills for > > > > little more than their kids make rolling cigarettes are after your jobs > > > and > > > > career. > > > > > > > > Their aim is to put us out of business and replace us with their IT > > > slaves. > > > > > > > > At least the imported H1B's spend money and pay taxes while they are > > here! > > > > > > > > H1B's are people, but foreign outsourcers are pirates! > > > > > > > > Write your elected officials and demand that they put a stop to > offshore > > > > outsourcing now! > > > > > > > > Do you want your credit, personnel, financial, and medical information > > > being > > > > programmed, stored, > > > > copied, communicated, and manipulated by these pirates and by their > > slaves > > > > in foreign countries? > > > > > > > > How can we expect our governments laws, which are meant to protect us, > to > > > > possibly > > > > be enforced in these foreign counties known to be havens for espionage > > and > > > > piracy? > > > > > > > > The time to act is now. > > > > > > > > Be watchful and aware of the threat to your career, your credit rating, > > > and > > > > your privacy. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > David > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Elite Outsource International, Inc" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:27 PM > > > > Subject: Introducing - Elite Outsource International, Inc > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > This is Srinivas Reddy from Elite Outsource International, Inc. I am > > > > writing > > > > > this letter to introduce myself and Elite's services of Software > > > > > Development, > > > > > Staff Augmentation (Consulting & Staffing), Project Management > > > > > (On Site & Off Shore) and outsourcing services, that we offer in the > > > > > Information Technology Industry. > > > > > > > > > > Please note that, I am well aware of the current market situation and > > my > > > > > goal is to better utilize this quiet time to get to know each other > and > > > > > establish a mutual business understanding, that can be fruitful and > > > > > beneficial to both our firms, towards your any and all future needs > in > > > the > > > > > IT Discipline. > > > > > > > > > > I take this opportunity to bring to your attention of Elite Outsource > > > > > International, Inc. A company that provides technology-driven > services > > > > > dedicated to helping its customers deploy, maximize, and manage > > > > Information > > > > > Systems Solutions. Elite Outsource International, Inc is one of > > > America's > > > > > fastest growing and dependable Private Company. Learn more about > Elite > > > > > Outsource International at www.eliteoutsource.com. > > > > > > > > > > I look forward to establishing a mutually beneficial relation between > > > us. > > > > I > > > > > request you to contact me anytime without hesitation for any and all > > > needs > > > > > you come across in IT Industry. > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Srinivas Reddy > > > > > General Manager. > > > > > > > > > > Elite Outsource International, Inc > > > > > Reinforcing Excellence > > > > > > > > > > 3-14, Fox Run Drive, > > > > > Plainsboro, > > > > > New Jersey - 08536 > > > > > www.eliteoutsource.com > > > > > > > > > > Phone: 609-716-7604 > > > > > Fax: 609-716-4911 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Under Bill s.1618 Title III passed by the 105th U.S.Congress this > mail > > > > > cannot be considered > > > > > Spam as long as we include contact information and a remove link for > > > > removal > > > > > from our mailing > > > > > list. To be removed from our mailing list reply to > > > > > mailto:reddys@eliteoutsource.com?Subject=Remove > > > > > with 'REMOVE' in the subject heading and your email address in the > > body. > > > > > Include complete address > > > > > and/or domain/aliases to be removed. If you still get the mails, > please > > > > call > > > > > us at the numbers given > > > > > above. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > ************************************************************ > > > "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find > > > nothing." > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > > > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > > > > > ===== > > ************************************************************ > > "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find > > nothing." > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > > ===== > ************************************************************ > "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find > nothing." > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com ===== ************************************************************ "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find nothing." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 16:54:34 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:32:29 -0400 From: Parthiban Subbiah Subject: Space and Tab - in flat file Hi all, I am trying to read a file which has leading tabs and spaces. Using ltrim function I amable to l-trim spaces, not tabs. How to Ltrim tabs?..I can write a code to do the same, but like to know if SQR function can do that.. Thanks,Parthiban Subbiah ------------------------------------------------ Changed your e-mail? Keep your contacts! Use this free e-mail change of address service from Return Path. Register now! From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 17:16:32 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:43:33 -0400 From: "Patel, Samir (CITS)" Subject: Re: Space and Tab - in flat file I am not sure if there is a specific command/function to trim off tabs, but here are some suggestions. I've never tried this, but you can use the encode command to "store" the tab into a variable, and then use the translate function to convert the tab to a blank. Or, instead of trying to trim off the spaces & tabs, how about you just read them into (one or more) "dummy" variables. This way you'll account for them (as position holders) in the file, and be able to read your file and process further. Hope that helps, Samir -----Original Message----- From: Parthiban Subbiah [mailto:parthiban@IWON.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 5:32 PM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Space and Tab - in flat file Hi all, I am trying to read a file which has leading tabs and spaces. Using ltrim function I amable to l-trim spaces, not tabs. How to Ltrim tabs?..I can write a code to do the same, but like to know if SQR function can do that.. Thanks,Parthiban Subbiah ------------------------------------------------ Changed your e-mail? Keep your contacts! Use this free e-mail change of address service from Return Path. Register now! From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 18:25:54 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 18:10:05 -0400 From: Jamie Harris Subject: Re: Space and Tab - in flat file --=_411DEAE1.D6B7D8C7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Try this: let $tab = chr(09) let $whatever = ltrim($whatever, $tab) It should work, but I didn't try it. ----------------------------------------------------- Jamie Harris Junior Systems Programmer/Analyst Information Technology Division Frederick Community College ----------------------------------------------------- >>> parthiban@IWON.COM 10/2/2002 5:32:29 PM >>> Hi all, I am trying to read a file which has leading tabs and spaces. Using ltrim function I amable to l-trim spaces, not tabs. How to Ltrim tabs?..I can write a code to do the same, but like to know if SQR function can do that.. Thanks,Parthiban Subbiah ------------------------------------------------ Changed your e-mail? Keep your contacts! Use this free e-mail change of address service from Return Path. Register now! --=_411DEAE1.D6B7D8C7 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Jamie Harris.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 X-GWTYPE:USER FN:Harris, Jamie TEL;WORK:2668 ORG:Work;Division of Information Technology EMAIL;WORK;PREF:JHarris@frederick.edu N:Harris;Jamie TITLE:Systems Analyst, PeopleSoft ADR;DOM;WORK;PARCEL;POSTAL:;L-205 LABEL;DOM;WORK;PARCEL;POSTAL;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:Harris, Jamie=0A= L-205 END:VCARD --=_411DEAE1.D6B7D8C7-- From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Fri Oct 4 09:32:28 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 08:00:03 -0500 From: Stephen Ratliff Subject: Re: Space and Tab - in flat file What Jamie suggested should work fine. Stephen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jamie Harris" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 5:10 PM Subject: Re: Space and Tab - in flat file > Try this: > > let $tab = chr(09) > let $whatever = ltrim($whatever, $tab) > > It should work, but I didn't try it. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Jamie Harris > Junior Systems Programmer/Analyst > Information Technology Division > Frederick Community College > ----------------------------------------------------- > > >>> parthiban@IWON.COM 10/2/2002 5:32:29 PM >>> > Hi all, I am trying to read a file which has leading tabs and spaces. > Using ltrim function I amable to l-trim spaces, not tabs. How to Ltrim > tabs?..I can write a code to do the same, but like to know if SQR > function can do that.. Thanks,Parthiban Subbiah > > ------------------------------------------------ > Changed your e-mail? Keep your contacts! Use this free e-mail change > of address service from Return Path. Register now! > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 17:16:44 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:47:17 -0700 From: Ken Boettger Subject: LJLN@yahoogroups.com just created. Re: An information pirate... I am spawning a new forum at Yahoo to follow this thread. LJLN-subscribe@yahoogroups.com LJLN@yahoogroups.com LJLN - Lost Jobs Lost Nations If interested, we can continue the discussion there. If you are interested in this topic, tell your friends to go there too. We will see where it goes. You can tell I used to be a consultant... a "can do" sorta person. -Ken >>> KnappR@UMSYSTEM.EDU 10/02/02 12:14PM >>> I tried. Honest, I really tried to keep out of this. But I can no longer hold my peace. I am replying to your message, Ken but I could have replied to several others and said the same thing. What is being left out of the analysis here is that it is not stockholders or the nations that are at fault. It is the wealthy elites that control the governments, their militaries and the propaganda machine popularly known as the media that are benefiting from GATT and NAFTA and small wars all over the world. How are ya' gonna stop 'em? They hold all the cards. They have been fighting this battle, and learning from their mistakes, for centuries, not decades. They have established institutions for perpetuating this knowledge. There are, naturally, limits to the 'expenses' an economy can sustain. We pay for the wars and the R&D that went into the equipment that facilitates the worldwide wholesale slaughter of innocents but if we have lost our jobs or have had our salaries 'downgraded', we won't be able to cough up the bucks at tax time. So, they still have one important lesson to learn. While the greed of these elites and the tactics to which they are willing to descend may be without limits, there is a limit, a physical limit, to what the system will bear. I predict that they are incapable of recognizing that limit and of restraining themselves in time to prevent a universal collapse, under its own weight, of the system. Sorry for the rant. Richard Knapp Database Programmer/Analyst Administrative Systems Project University of Missouri System 573-884-3157 knappr@umsystem.edu -----Original Message----- From: Ken Boettger [mailto:BoettgeK@CWU.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 10:41 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: An information pirate attempts to develop opportunities! Just look atthis SPAM I received! Actually, I read in the Seattle times last year about GM 'outsourcing' 10,000 IT jobs to India. Those jobs alone from one company represent nearly one percentage point of the employment rate of just about any state in the US. Cornell did a study over a year ago published in CNN that addressed corporate america's outsourcing to other nations. Same thing is happening with Boeing in China. Even Levi admitted that it can no longer compete without taking its labor outside America to make jeans. Our once 'American' corporations have gone from being proud of our products where other nations come to buy them (aka, quality)... to behind door deals where corporate execs coerce other nations to buy 'their' products if they ship labor to their countries and give the client nation jobs. A net lose of quality and social integrity (as explained below). The net effect, with jobs and products produced in another country, one wonders if it would be correct to drop the 'America' and just call them corporations.. or... maybe something like WORLD Corporations! I think you get the picture. World Trade implies (theoretically) that poor countries will rise from poverty. But what we are not told is that we have an equilibrium there.... where there is a rise, there is also a fall. ALL systems work this way... even supply and demand.Those nations at the top will move CLOSER to poverity. And that is what we are seeing here in the US. Only the corporate elite prosper (by selling off the inherit social integrity in the form of jobs). Corporate 'America' no longer has soverignity to Americans. And until we address that, and the other issues there, America will continue its downward spiral. Here is another one for you... America and American business... always had a moral code where competition was good. Monopolies are bad. Competition is what drove progress and better products. Small business wat the norm. So, my question to you, what is World Trade where all countries, in essence, become one? Our emphasis has gone from small companies to large corporations... which necessarily implies less competition and that everything is done the same. I don't see these small shops mentioned in the previous post as much of a problem as the larger one I am addressing here. MOST of the jobs are being lost right under our noses. And it is not just IT anymore. Nor is it limited to America. Engineers and most any non-tangible trade (where you do not have your hand in making a tangible product) are easily shipped from our largest most successful countries. These countries SHOULD be rewarded with those jobs as they 'were' the advanced societies that showed the rest of the world how it was suppose to be done. Unfortunately, corporate execs are no better than two-bit car salesmens and will sell out nation soverignity along with a system of social progress that has defined our world for the last several thousand years. Corporations know that other nations are a ready source of cheap labor that can be whipped up to work long hours. Greed rather than social progress drives the current state. Once the jobs and opportunities arise within that country, it wakes up the local businessmen. And so we have these smaller shops at play. World Trade is at the root of all this. It is in conflict with the entire precept of competition and diversity within nations, work forces and business. World Trade in itself is not bad... but when a corporate coerced government abuses it... changes it into a system of world domination... then we have a problem. Our consolidation of small businesses into larger ones will ultimately drive the same with our governments. World Trade will only work if it is married with a true concern and interest in creating the laws to break up large corporations and support small business... including consultants. -Ken >>> thorburn@CONL.NET 10/01/02 08:15PM >>> To the list: This SPAM from an offshore outsourcing pirate, Mr. Reddy, arrived in my email today. I just wanted to send this to the list, and selected media to make sure that other American IT Professionals are aware that people like this, who represent offshore development centers full of hordes of slaves, working in countries where copyright and patent laws are not respected, and, where most toil in slave programming mills for little more than their kids make rolling cigarettes are after your jobs and career. Their aim is to put us out of business and replace us with their IT slaves. At least the imported H1B's spend money and pay taxes while they are here! H1B's are people, but foreign outsourcers are pirates! Write your elected officials and demand that they put a stop to offshore outsourcing now! Do you want your credit, personnel, financial, and medical information being programmed, stored, copied, communicated, and manipulated by these pirates and by their slaves in foreign countries? How can we expect our governments laws, which are meant to protect us, to possibly be enforced in these foreign counties known to be havens for espionage and piracy? The time to act is now. Be watchful and aware of the threat to your career, your credit rating, and your privacy. Regards, David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elite Outsource International, Inc" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:27 PM Subject: Introducing - Elite Outsource International, Inc > Hi, > > This is Srinivas Reddy from Elite Outsource International, Inc. I am writing > this letter to introduce myself and Elite's services of Software > Development, > Staff Augmentation (Consulting & Staffing), Project Management > (On Site & Off Shore) and outsourcing services, that we offer in the > Information Technology Industry. > > Please note that, I am well aware of the current market situation and my > goal is to better utilize this quiet time to get to know each other and > establish a mutual business understanding, that can be fruitful and > beneficial to both our firms, towards your any and all future needs in the > IT Discipline. > > I take this opportunity to bring to your attention of Elite Outsource > International, Inc. A company that provides technology-driven services > dedicated to helping its customers deploy, maximize, and manage Information > Systems Solutions. Elite Outsource International, Inc is one of America's > fastest growing and dependable Private Company. Learn more about Elite > Outsource International at www.eliteoutsource.com. > > I look forward to establishing a mutually beneficial relation between us. I > request you to contact me anytime without hesitation for any and all needs > you come across in IT Industry. > > Sincerely, > > > Srinivas Reddy > General Manager. > > Elite Outsource International, Inc > Reinforcing Excellence > > 3-14, Fox Run Drive, > Plainsboro, > New Jersey - 08536 > www.eliteoutsource.com > > Phone: 609-716-7604 > Fax: 609-716-4911 > > > Under Bill s.1618 Title III passed by the 105th U.S.Congress this mail > cannot be considered > Spam as long as we include contact information and a remove link for removal > from our mailing > list. To be removed from our mailing list reply to > mailto:reddys@eliteoutsource.com?Subject=Remove > with 'REMOVE' in the subject heading and your email address in the body. > Include complete address > and/or domain/aliases to be removed. If you still get the mails, please call > us at the numbers given > above. > > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Wed Oct 2 17:45:31 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 18:07:16 -0400 From: Geek Unlimited Subject: trimming tabs and spaces >>Hi all, I am trying to read a file which has >>leading tabs and spaces. Using ltrim function I >>amable to l-trim spaces, not tabs. How to Ltrim >>tabs?.. let $tab = chr(9) let $line = ltrim(ltrim($InputLine, $tab), ' ') Andrew :) From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Fri Oct 4 09:32:21 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:44:57 -0400 From: George Jansen Subject: Right-justification A couple of days ago somebody had a question about right justification of proportional fonts. My suggestion on this: 1. Load up your font widths into a table with rows approximately where CHR is the ascii value: 65 = 'A', etc, RAW_UNITS are what you cribbed from an AFM file or something like that, and PROPORTIONAL_UNITS are (say) the RAW_UNITS(this_char)/RAW_UNITS('M'). 2. Write a stored procedure taking a string, a font, and a point size, and returning an estimated width. In Oracle, I'd create a package, with spec something like CREATE OR REPLACE PACKAGE sqr_font_scaling AS FUNCTION width_in_points (p_string IN VARCHAR2, p_font IN VARCHAR2, p_font_size IN NUMBER) RETURN NUMBER; END sqr_font_scaling; / This will be callable from SQL, ergo from sqr, as BEGIN-SELECT sqr_font_scaling.width_in_points($header,'Arial', 10) FROM dual END-SELECT 3. (Or maybe 0.) Explain to the incredibly fussy managers or whoever has to have the stuff right-justified how much time this will take, and what you could otherwise accomplish in it. My suspicion is that a long afternoon might give you encouraging results, and that even a stored procedure such as this might give adequate results, given that it's not being called all the time. From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Fri Oct 4 09:30:04 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:10:28 -0600 From: Ronnie JD Subject: Re: SQR calling an external e-mail Lotus Notes (CALL SYSTEM) Hi, I have a question about SQR using CALL SYSTEM. From an SQR, I am trying to execute Lotus Notes Email, to every record of data in the table being processed. $Lotusmail = Command line syntax for Lotus Notes CALL SYSTEM Using $Lotusmail #Lotus_status Wait If #Lotusstatus <> 0 Show 'Lotus Mail Error' End-if I know the above CALL System syntax. But I am trying to find out the code required for $Lotusmail syntax. (Command line syntax for Lotus Notes) Can you send me the piece of code that your wrote, immaterial of whether it is applicable for me or not. I am writing this code in the SQR executing in VMS enviroment. Please post any information you can as this is urgent. Thanks in Advance. - Ronnie From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Fri Oct 4 09:30:59 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 13:23:52 -0400 From: Paul Hoyte Subject: Re: HTML Image Path This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C26AE0.1E659EB0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C26AE0.1E659EB0" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C26AE0.1E659EB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sam : Sorry for taking so long to get back to you on this. I am currently working in LA on a tight 13/day 6day/week project which doesn't leave a whole lot of time. If you look at a published html file that is already in the portal, it will show you the path structure. I cant think of the correct structure right now but I will send you an example later today when I get back to the office. Take care. Working with quite a few ex-Tricon consultants!!! Paul Hoyte Sharidionne Inc. (248) 559-6868 Email: phoyte@sharidionne.com -----Original Message----- From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net] On Behalf Of Montgomery, Sam Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:48 AM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: HTML Image Path I am publishing a very small html file which uses one gif image. But I want to publish the gif image in a different category. I cannot seem to figure out how to put the proper path to the correct category that the gif file is located. If I put the gif file in the same category as the html file and use just the name then it is found with no problem. Otherwise I get an X instead of the gif. Thanks, Sam DISCLAIMER: This communication is confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, (i) please do not read or disclose to others, (ii) please notify the sender by reply mail, and (iii) please delete this communication from your system. Failure to follow this process may be unlawful. Thank you for your cooperation. ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C26AE0.1E659EB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Sam = :
 
Sorry for taking=20 so long to get back to you on this.  I am currently working in LA = on a=20 tight 13/day 6day/week project which doesn't leave a whole lot of = time.  If=20 you look at a published html file that is already in the portal, it will = show=20 you the path structure.  I cant think of the correct structure = right now=20 but I will send you an example later today when I get back to the = office. =20 Take care.  Working with quite a few ex-Tricon=20 consultants!!!
 
 

Paul = Hoyte=20
Sharidionne=20 Inc.
(248)=20 559-6868
Email: phoyte@sharidionne.com

-----Original Message-----
From: = Discussion of=20 SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language=20 [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net] On Behalf Of Montgomery,=20 Sam
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:48 AM
To:=20 SQR-USERS@list.iex.net
Subject: HTML Image = Path

I am=20 publishing a very small html file which uses one gif=20 image.
But I want=20 to publish the gif image in a different = category.
 
I cannot=20 seem to figure out how to put the proper path = to
the correct=20 category that the gif file is located.
 
If I put the=20 gif file in the same category as the html file and =
use just the=20 name then it is found with no problem.
 
Otherwise I=20 get an X instead of the gif.
 
Thanks,
 
Sam
 

DISCLAIMER:
This communication is confidential and may be = legally=20 privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, (i) please do not = read or=20 disclose to others, (ii) please notify the sender by reply mail, and = (iii)=20 please delete this communication from your system. Failure to follow = this=20 process may be unlawful. Thank you for your cooperation.=20

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Re: An information pirate... And yet another. Here the Department of Justice (US) actually recognizes lost jobs here in America. http://bernie.house.gov/documents/releases/20020624105727.asp http://www.balkanunity.org/usa/english/cans.htm (I think I left this off the previous post - Shipping ports shut down) -Ken From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Fri Oct 4 11:01:34 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 08:36:18 -0700 From: Ken Boettger Subject: LJLN@yahoogroups.com just created. Re: An information pirate... Damn. Sorry, replied to the wrong message. Was intended for LJLN (spawned as a result of a discussion on this list). I'll get this right. Apologies... -Ken From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Fri Oct 4 11:27:31 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 12:04:25 -0400 From: "Mezzullo, Paul" Greetings All ... Does anyone know of a method to suppress the printing of the heading section in SQR? I have an SQR that prints a 300+ page report and I only need to print the heading section on certain occurrences. I was wondering if there was a way to programmatically toggle it on off without building an IF-THEN construct etc. Thanks for your help ......... Thanks - Paul From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Fri Oct 4 17:45:47 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 15:18:11 -0700 From: David Thorburn Subject: Re: How to unsubscribe from the SQR users list? Tap your heals together three times and say Unsubscribe me! D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shanti Ramakrishnan" To: Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 8:19 AM Subject: How to unsubscribe from the SQR users list? > Hi, > Can any one let me know how to unsubscribe from this list. I appreciate your help. > Thanks > Shanti > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Fri Oct 4 23:22:12 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 21:01:37 -0700 From: Shanti Ramakrishnan Subject: Re: How to unsubscribe from the SQR users list? Thanks David! It did really worked. David Thorburn wrote:Tap your heals together three times and say Unsubscribe me! D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shanti Ramakrishnan" To: Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 8:19 AM Subject: How to unsubscribe from the SQR users list? > Hi, > Can any one let me know how to unsubscribe from this list. I appreciate your help. > Thanks > Shanti > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Sat Oct 5 09:18:44 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 06:55:03 -0700 From: David Thorburn Subject: Re: How to unsubscribe from the SQR users list? I see you have a sense of humor too! Cool! Refreshing after the last several days of whiners! Go to the SQRUG.org web site and they have directions to subscribe and unsubscribe. Regards, D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shanti Ramakrishnan" To: Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 9:01 PM Subject: Re: How to unsubscribe from the SQR users list? > Thanks David! It did really worked. > David Thorburn wrote:Tap your heals together three times and say > > Unsubscribe me! > > > > D. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Shanti Ramakrishnan" > To: > Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 8:19 AM > Subject: How to unsubscribe from the SQR users list? > > > > Hi, > > Can any one let me know how to unsubscribe from this list. I appreciate > your help. > > Thanks > > Shanti > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more > faith.yahoo.com > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Sun Oct 6 00:30:58 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 22:06:55 -0700 From: Shanti Ramakrishnan Subject: Re: How to unsubscribe from the SQR users list? Hey David, What happened to your sense of humor? Just hang on to it. Don't let it go. I see so many are bashing you. This is the time for you to put your sense of humor to testing wheel. GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR HUMOR! Shanti David Thorburn wrote:I see you have a sense of humor too! Cool! Refreshing after the last several days of whiners! Go to the SQRUG.org web site and they have directions to subscribe and unsubscribe. Regards, D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shanti Ramakrishnan" To: Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 9:01 PM Subject: Re: How to unsubscribe from the SQR users list? > Thanks David! It did really worked. > David Thorburn wrote:Tap your heals together three times and say > > Unsubscribe me! > > > > D. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Shanti Ramakrishnan" > To: > Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 8:19 AM > Subject: How to unsubscribe from the SQR users list? > > > > Hi, > > Can any one let me know how to unsubscribe from this list. I appreciate > your help. > > Thanks > > Shanti > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more > faith.yahoo.com > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Fri Oct 4 17:47:16 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 17:24:09 -0500 From: the dragon sure - something like this - set your heading size to 0, and don't print anything there, and have a procedure that prints the information you'd have in the heading as the first called print procedure - It'll print your heading info, and than you don't have to worry about it. clark 'the dragon' willis daragon enterprises, consulting services. PSA: Salary <> Slavery. If you earn a salary, your employer is renting your services for 40 hours a week, not purchasing your soul. Your time is the only real finite asset that you have, and once used it can never be recovered, so don't waste it by giving it away. "Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you." Carl Sandburg (1878 - 1967) ----Original Message Follows---- Greetings All ... Does anyone know of a method to suppress the printing of the heading section in SQR? I have an SQR that prints a 300+ page report and I only need to print the heading section on certain occurrences. I was wondering if there was a way to programmatically toggle it on off without building an IF-THEN construct etc. Thanks for your help ......... Thanks - Paul _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Sat Oct 5 11:49:47 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 09:31:13 -0700 From: David Thorburn Subject: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List My reply to Sam who wrote me offline: Sam, Thank you for your email. There are no grounds for banishing me from this list. I am merely defending myself upon being attacked for my opinions. The opinions I expressed are echoed in most of the popular IT publications at this time. I take the careers of American IT people, including myself, quite seriously, and I had = hoped that by using this list, and others like it, I could reach a large = audience of IT people. =20 Unfortunately some of those I reached do not have the sense to take action or seek help from their elected officials to maintain and protect their career opportunities from overseas pirates.=20 They should be thanking me not flaming me Can you/they not see that? I am sure that once laid off due to offshore outsourcing, they will see it too...a little too late! I do believe that prolonging the flame war on the list=20 is not a good idea. Several who have attacked me have done so via State, Academic, or employer owned email services and I will pursue them through their = Superiors at their respective employers. They may be surprised to know that their online activity may=20 lose them their jobs! Most employers expresly forbid using their employer owned email to subscribe to lists of any kind. Regards, David From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Sat Oct 5 12:07:47 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 12:46:52 -0400 From: Thomas White Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List I remember when I was 14 and I tried to get others in trouble. Geez what a idiot. Going to write to employers and try to get people fired because they offended you??? I don't know who you work for but I'm certain managers have more important things than to deal with than a person emailing them about their employee's use of an educational email forum. Good lord your driving us crazy. If you have enough time to write companies and attempt to get their employees fired because they offended you, then you have way more issues than can be expressed on this list. Get a life. Go whine to somewhere else. From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Sat Oct 5 12:51:17 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 13:28:18 -0400 From: Doug Nichols Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List David obviously isn't very good as a programmer, that's why he has to use this forum to rail against the offshore people. He needs to grow up and stop being a baby about it. It's not against every corporations or universities policies to subscribe to email lists. He is abusive to people on this list and if that's not grounds enough to get him thrown off, I don't know what is. I see Ray's point about him just using a different email to subscribe to this, but has he ever provided any answers to questions? Or is he just a malcontent that can't get the job done? If you feel so threatened in this line of work, David, why don't you just find another? I think the supermarket is always looking for bag boys. -----Original Message----- From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net] On Behalf Of Thomas White Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 12:47 PM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List I remember when I was 14 and I tried to get others in trouble. Geez what a idiot. Going to write to employers and try to get people fired because they offended you??? I don't know who you work for but I'm certain managers have more important things than to deal with than a person emailing them about their employee's use of an educational email forum. Good lord your driving us crazy. If you have enough time to write companies and attempt to get their employees fired because they offended you, then you have way more issues than can be expressed on this list. Get a life. Go whine to somewhere else. From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Sat Oct 5 17:25:53 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 15:02:43 -0700 From: David Thorburn Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List Doug, Every time you post you reveal more and more of your lack of intelligence and whiney PC mind-set. Doug Nichols obviously makes wild assumptions without regard to factual information. I am have been programming in over 10 different languages for more than 20 years and make a very good living. This is quite unlike Doug who is one of the leeches out here who could not get programming assignments done without asking others to do it! As I said before, defending myself is not being abusive and those who cannot figure that out are probably not smart enough to be programmers. It's obvious Doug isn't' Doug, change your diaper and grow up! D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Nichols" To: Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 10:28 AM Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List > David obviously isn't very good as a programmer, that's why he has to > use this forum to rail against the offshore people. He needs to grow up > and stop being a baby about it. It's not against every corporations or > universities policies to subscribe to email lists. > He is abusive to people on this list and if that's not grounds enough to > get him thrown off, I don't know what is. I see Ray's point about him > just using a different email to subscribe to this, but has he ever > provided any answers to questions? Or is he just a malcontent that can't > get the job done? If you feel so threatened in this line of work, David, > why don't you just find another? I think the supermarket is always > looking for bag boys. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net] On Behalf Of Thomas White > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 12:47 PM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List > > I remember when I was 14 and I tried to get others in trouble. Geez > what a idiot. Going to write to employers and try to get people fired > because they offended you??? I don't know who you work for but I'm > certain managers have more important things than to deal with than a > person emailing them about their employee's use of an educational email > forum. Good lord your driving us crazy. If you have enough time to > write companies and attempt to get their employees fired because they > offended you, then you have way more issues than can be expressed on > this list. Get a life. Go whine to somewhere else. > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Sat Oct 5 18:11:14 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 15:44:20 -0700 From: Sam Spritzer Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List David, Normally, I would stand down and just watch the flames fly. But in this case and in defense of Doug, I make an exception. I would think twice before giving him your harsh point of view. Perhaps...you have been watching too much Neil Cavuto or Bill O'Reilly? I have had the honor and privilege of working with Doug. He is a fine and hard working professional whose opinion has been extremely helpful and valuable. I would not hesitate to, under any circumstances, defend his character. Sam --- David Thorburn wrote: > Doug, > > Every time you post you reveal more and more of your > lack of intelligence and whiney PC mind-set. > > Doug Nichols obviously makes wild assumptions without regard > to factual information. > > I am have been programming in over 10 different languages for more > than 20 years and make a very good living. This is quite unlike Doug who > is one of the leeches out here who could not get programming > assignments done without asking others to do it! > > As I said before, defending myself is not being abusive and those who cannot > figure that out are probably not smart enough to be programmers. > > It's obvious Doug isn't' > > Doug, change your diaper and grow up! > > > > D. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Nichols" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 10:28 AM > Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List > > > > David obviously isn't very good as a programmer, that's why he has to > > use this forum to rail against the offshore people. He needs to grow up > > and stop being a baby about it. It's not against every corporations or > > universities policies to subscribe to email lists. > > He is abusive to people on this list and if that's not grounds enough to > > get him thrown off, I don't know what is. I see Ray's point about him > > just using a different email to subscribe to this, but has he ever > > provided any answers to questions? Or is he just a malcontent that can't > > get the job done? If you feel so threatened in this line of work, David, > > why don't you just find another? I think the supermarket is always > > looking for bag boys. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net] On Behalf Of Thomas White > > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 12:47 PM > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List > > > > I remember when I was 14 and I tried to get others in trouble. Geez > > what a idiot. Going to write to employers and try to get people fired > > because they offended you??? I don't know who you work for but I'm > > certain managers have more important things than to deal with than a > > person emailing them about their employee's use of an educational email > > forum. Good lord your driving us crazy. If you have enough time to > > write companies and attempt to get their employees fired because they > > offended you, then you have way more issues than can be expressed on > > this list. Get a life. Go whine to somewhere else. > > ===== ************************************************************ "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find nothing." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Sat Oct 5 19:34:21 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 17:10:48 -0700 From: David Thorburn Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List Sam, Once again thanks for email. I can only judge Doug's character by the ludicrus statements he is currently making. He makes wild assumptions, which you can see for yourself. Incidently, there is nothing wrong with watching either Cavuto, or O'Reilly as long as they are not one's only source of news and opinion. Anything but Donahue! There are plenty to defend my character too, so Doug is lucky to have you; he needs all the help he can get! Regards, David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Spritzer" To: Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 3:44 PM Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List > David, > Normally, I would stand down and just watch the flames fly. But in this case > and in defense of Doug, I make an exception. I would think twice before giving > him your harsh point of view. Perhaps...you have been watching too much Neil > Cavuto or Bill O'Reilly? > I have had the honor and privilege of working with Doug. He is a fine and hard > working professional whose opinion has been extremely helpful and valuable. I > would not hesitate to, under any circumstances, defend his character. > Sam > > > --- David Thorburn wrote: > > Doug, > > > > Every time you post you reveal more and more of your > > lack of intelligence and whiney PC mind-set. > > > > Doug Nichols obviously makes wild assumptions without regard > > to factual information. > > > > I am have been programming in over 10 different languages for more > > than 20 years and make a very good living. This is quite unlike Doug who > > is one of the leeches out here who could not get programming > > assignments done without asking others to do it! > > > > As I said before, defending myself is not being abusive and those who cannot > > figure that out are probably not smart enough to be programmers. > > > > It's obvious Doug isn't' > > > > Doug, change your diaper and grow up! > > > > > > > > D. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Doug Nichols" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 10:28 AM > > Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List > > > > > > > David obviously isn't very good as a programmer, that's why he has to > > > use this forum to rail against the offshore people. He needs to grow up > > > and stop being a baby about it. It's not against every corporations or > > > universities policies to subscribe to email lists. > > > He is abusive to people on this list and if that's not grounds enough to > > > get him thrown off, I don't know what is. I see Ray's point about him > > > just using a different email to subscribe to this, but has he ever > > > provided any answers to questions? Or is he just a malcontent that can't > > > get the job done? If you feel so threatened in this line of work, David, > > > why don't you just find another? I think the supermarket is always > > > looking for bag boys. > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > > > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net] On Behalf Of Thomas White > > > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 12:47 PM > > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > > Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List > > > > > > I remember when I was 14 and I tried to get others in trouble. Geez > > > what a idiot. Going to write to employers and try to get people fired > > > because they offended you??? I don't know who you work for but I'm > > > certain managers have more important things than to deal with than a > > > person emailing them about their employee's use of an educational email > > > forum. Good lord your driving us crazy. If you have enough time to > > > write companies and attempt to get their employees fired because they > > > offended you, then you have way more issues than can be expressed on > > > this list. Get a life. Go whine to somewhere else. > > > > > > ===== > ************************************************************ > "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find nothing." > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More > http://faith.yahoo.com > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Sat Oct 5 20:50:53 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 21:26:25 -0400 From: Stephen Keen Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List Sam, Comparing the President to Hitler. Come on that is not reasonable! Hitler killed more than 9 million people. How can this comparison be condoned! -----Original Message----- From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net] On Behalf Of Sam Spritzer Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 6:44 PM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List David, Normally, I would stand down and just watch the flames fly. But in this case and in defense of Doug, I make an exception. I would think twice before giving him your harsh point of view. Perhaps...you have been watching too much Neil Cavuto or Bill O'Reilly? I have had the honor and privilege of working with Doug. He is a fine and hard working professional whose opinion has been extremely helpful and valuable. I would not hesitate to, under any circumstances, defend his character. Sam --- David Thorburn wrote: > Doug, > > Every time you post you reveal more and more of your > lack of intelligence and whiney PC mind-set. > > Doug Nichols obviously makes wild assumptions without regard > to factual information. > > I am have been programming in over 10 different languages for more > than 20 years and make a very good living. This is quite unlike Doug who > is one of the leeches out here who could not get programming > assignments done without asking others to do it! > > As I said before, defending myself is not being abusive and those who cannot > figure that out are probably not smart enough to be programmers. > > It's obvious Doug isn't' > > Doug, change your diaper and grow up! > > > > D. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Nichols" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 10:28 AM > Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List > > > > David obviously isn't very good as a programmer, that's why he has to > > use this forum to rail against the offshore people. He needs to grow up > > and stop being a baby about it. It's not against every corporations or > > universities policies to subscribe to email lists. > > He is abusive to people on this list and if that's not grounds enough to > > get him thrown off, I don't know what is. I see Ray's point about him > > just using a different email to subscribe to this, but has he ever > > provided any answers to questions? Or is he just a malcontent that can't > > get the job done? If you feel so threatened in this line of work, David, > > why don't you just find another? I think the supermarket is always > > looking for bag boys. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net] On Behalf Of Thomas White > > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 12:47 PM > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List > > > > I remember when I was 14 and I tried to get others in trouble. Geez > > what a idiot. Going to write to employers and try to get people fired > > because they offended you??? I don't know who you work for but I'm > > certain managers have more important things than to deal with than a > > person emailing them about their employee's use of an educational email > > forum. Good lord your driving us crazy. If you have enough time to > > write companies and attempt to get their employees fired because they > > offended you, then you have way more issues than can be expressed on > > this list. Get a life. Go whine to somewhere else. > > ===== ************************************************************ "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find nothing." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Sat Oct 5 21:22:15 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 18:58:40 -0700 From: Sam Spritzer Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List Stephen, I am afraid you have me mistaken for someone else. I didn't make any such comparison. Sam --- Stephen Keen wrote: > Sam, > > Comparing the President to Hitler. Come on that is not reasonable! Hitler > killed more than 9 million people. How can this comparison be condoned! > > -----Original Message----- > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net] On Behalf Of Sam Spritzer > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 6:44 PM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List > > David, > Normally, I would stand down and just watch the flames fly. But in this > case > and in defense of Doug, I make an exception. I would think twice before > giving > him your harsh point of view. Perhaps...you have been watching too much > Neil > Cavuto or Bill O'Reilly? > I have had the honor and privilege of working with Doug. He is a fine and > hard > working professional whose opinion has been extremely helpful and valuable. > I > would not hesitate to, under any circumstances, defend his character. > Sam > > > --- David Thorburn wrote: > > Doug, > > > > Every time you post you reveal more and more of your > > lack of intelligence and whiney PC mind-set. > > > > Doug Nichols obviously makes wild assumptions without regard > > to factual information. > > > > I am have been programming in over 10 different languages for more > > than 20 years and make a very good living. This is quite unlike Doug who > > is one of the leeches out here who could not get programming > > assignments done without asking others to do it! > > > > As I said before, defending myself is not being abusive and those who > cannot > > figure that out are probably not smart enough to be programmers. > > > > It's obvious Doug isn't' > > > > Doug, change your diaper and grow up! > > > > > > > > D. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Doug Nichols" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 10:28 AM > > Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List > > > > > > > David obviously isn't very good as a programmer, that's why he has to > > > use this forum to rail against the offshore people. He needs to grow up > > > and stop being a baby about it. It's not against every corporations or > > > universities policies to subscribe to email lists. > > > He is abusive to people on this list and if that's not grounds enough to > > > get him thrown off, I don't know what is. I see Ray's point about him > > > just using a different email to subscribe to this, but has he ever > > > provided any answers to questions? Or is he just a malcontent that can't > > > get the job done? If you feel so threatened in this line of work, David, > > > why don't you just find another? I think the supermarket is always > > > looking for bag boys. > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > > > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net] On Behalf Of Thomas White > > > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 12:47 PM > > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > > Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List > > > > > > I remember when I was 14 and I tried to get others in trouble. Geez > > > what a idiot. Going to write to employers and try to get people fired > > > because they offended you??? I don't know who you work for but I'm > > > certain managers have more important things than to deal with than a > > > person emailing them about their employee's use of an educational email > > > forum. Good lord your driving us crazy. If you have enough time to > > > write companies and attempt to get their employees fired because they > > > offended you, then you have way more issues than can be expressed on > > > this list. Get a life. Go whine to somewhere else. > > > > > > ===== > ************************************************************ > "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find > nothing." > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More > http://faith.yahoo.com ===== ************************************************************ "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find nothing." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Sun Oct 6 13:33:17 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 13:58:22 -0400 From: Stephen Keen Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List I apologize Sam. I was wrong. Steve -----Original Message----- From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net] On Behalf Of Sam Spritzer Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 9:59 PM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List Stephen, I am afraid you have me mistaken for someone else. I didn't make any such comparison. Sam --- Stephen Keen wrote: > Sam, > > Comparing the President to Hitler. Come on that is not reasonable! Hitler > killed more than 9 million people. How can this comparison be condoned! > > -----Original Message----- > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net] On Behalf Of Sam Spritzer > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 6:44 PM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List > > David, > Normally, I would stand down and just watch the flames fly. But in this > case > and in defense of Doug, I make an exception. I would think twice before > giving > him your harsh point of view. Perhaps...you have been watching too much > Neil > Cavuto or Bill O'Reilly? > I have had the honor and privilege of working with Doug. He is a fine and > hard > working professional whose opinion has been extremely helpful and valuable. > I > would not hesitate to, under any circumstances, defend his character. > Sam > > > --- David Thorburn wrote: > > Doug, > > > > Every time you post you reveal more and more of your > > lack of intelligence and whiney PC mind-set. > > > > Doug Nichols obviously makes wild assumptions without regard > > to factual information. > > > > I am have been programming in over 10 different languages for more > > than 20 years and make a very good living. This is quite unlike Doug who > > is one of the leeches out here who could not get programming > > assignments done without asking others to do it! > > > > As I said before, defending myself is not being abusive and those who > cannot > > figure that out are probably not smart enough to be programmers. > > > > It's obvious Doug isn't' > > > > Doug, change your diaper and grow up! > > > > > > > > D. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Doug Nichols" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 10:28 AM > > Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List > > > > > > > David obviously isn't very good as a programmer, that's why he has to > > > use this forum to rail against the offshore people. He needs to grow up > > > and stop being a baby about it. It's not against every corporations or > > > universities policies to subscribe to email lists. > > > He is abusive to people on this list and if that's not grounds enough to > > > get him thrown off, I don't know what is. I see Ray's point about him > > > just using a different email to subscribe to this, but has he ever > > > provided any answers to questions? Or is he just a malcontent that can't > > > get the job done? If you feel so threatened in this line of work, David, > > > why don't you just find another? I think the supermarket is always > > > looking for bag boys. > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > > > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net] On Behalf Of Thomas White > > > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 12:47 PM > > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > > Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List > > > > > > I remember when I was 14 and I tried to get others in trouble. Geez > > > what a idiot. Going to write to employers and try to get people fired > > > because they offended you??? I don't know who you work for but I'm > > > certain managers have more important things than to deal with than a > > > person emailing them about their employee's use of an educational email > > > forum. Good lord your driving us crazy. If you have enough time to > > > write companies and attempt to get their employees fired because they > > > offended you, then you have way more issues than can be expressed on > > > this list. Get a life. Go whine to somewhere else. > > > > > > ===== > ************************************************************ > "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find > nothing." > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More > http://faith.yahoo.com ===== ************************************************************ "In the beginning, there was something...which exploded yet, they find nothing." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Sat Oct 5 21:40:44 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 22:21:32 -0400 From: Doug Nichols Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List Hey David, I can guarantee you I make more money than you. And I have actually never asked a question of this list. I don't need to get people to answer questions for me. You are just a complete moron and jerk and should be banned from this list. Grow up, get a life and try to act like a civilized person. I don't care on iota if every single sqr job is sent offshore. I don't need to do this to make a living. You are th whiner, threatening to get people fired because they use this list and letting your congress person know that you don't like how corporations are sending work offshore. They've been doing that for a long, long time and if you think you are going to change that, you're sadly mistaken. -----Original Message----- From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net] On Behalf Of David Thorburn Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 6:03 PM To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List Doug, Every time you post you reveal more and more of your lack of intelligence and whiney PC mind-set. Doug Nichols obviously makes wild assumptions without regard to factual information. I am have been programming in over 10 different languages for more than 20 years and make a very good living. This is quite unlike Doug who is one of the leeches out here who could not get programming assignments done without asking others to do it! As I said before, defending myself is not being abusive and those who cannot figure that out are probably not smart enough to be programmers. It's obvious Doug isn't' Doug, change your diaper and grow up! D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Nichols" To: Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 10:28 AM Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List > David obviously isn't very good as a programmer, that's why he has to > use this forum to rail against the offshore people. He needs to grow up > and stop being a baby about it. It's not against every corporations or > universities policies to subscribe to email lists. > He is abusive to people on this list and if that's not grounds enough to > get him thrown off, I don't know what is. I see Ray's point about him > just using a different email to subscribe to this, but has he ever > provided any answers to questions? Or is he just a malcontent that can't > get the job done? If you feel so threatened in this line of work, David, > why don't you just find another? I think the supermarket is always > looking for bag boys. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net] On Behalf Of Thomas White > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 12:47 PM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List > > I remember when I was 14 and I tried to get others in trouble. Geez > what a idiot. Going to write to employers and try to get people fired > because they offended you??? I don't know who you work for but I'm > certain managers have more important things than to deal with than a > person emailing them about their employee's use of an educational email > forum. Good lord your driving us crazy. If you have enough time to > write companies and attempt to get their employees fired because they > offended you, then you have way more issues than can be expressed on > this list. Get a life. Go whine to somewhere else. > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Sun Oct 6 11:15:04 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 08:51:02 -0700 From: David Thorburn Subject: Doug Nichols whines again! Like I said before, Doug, Go change your diaper and quit whining. What kind if person gets on a list like this with an 'I make more than you do' line of BS? I'm sure you will have the whole list laughing at you now! Feel Better Now, Dougie? D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Nichols" To: Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 7:21 PM Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List > Hey David, > > > I can guarantee you I make more money than you. And I have actually > never asked a question of this list. I don't need to get people to > answer questions for me. You are just a complete moron and jerk and > should be banned from this list. > > Grow up, get a life and try to act like a civilized person. I don't care > on iota if every single sqr job is sent offshore. I don't need to do > this to make a living. You are th whiner, threatening to get people > fired because they use this list and letting your congress person know > that you don't like how corporations are sending work offshore. They've > been doing that for a long, long time and if you think you are going to > change that, you're sadly mistaken. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net] On Behalf Of David Thorburn > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 6:03 PM > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List > > Doug, > > Every time you post you reveal more and more of your > lack of intelligence and whiney PC mind-set. > > Doug Nichols obviously makes wild assumptions without regard > to factual information. > > I am have been programming in over 10 different languages for more > than 20 years and make a very good living. This is quite unlike Doug > who > is one of the leeches out here who could not get programming > assignments done without asking others to do it! > > As I said before, defending myself is not being abusive and those who > cannot > figure that out are probably not smart enough to be programmers. > > It's obvious Doug isn't' > > Doug, change your diaper and grow up! > > > > D. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Nichols" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 10:28 AM > Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List > > > > David obviously isn't very good as a programmer, that's why he has to > > use this forum to rail against the offshore people. He needs to grow > up > > and stop being a baby about it. It's not against every corporations or > > universities policies to subscribe to email lists. > > He is abusive to people on this list and if that's not grounds enough > to > > get him thrown off, I don't know what is. I see Ray's point about him > > just using a different email to subscribe to this, but has he ever > > provided any answers to questions? Or is he just a malcontent that > can't > > get the job done? If you feel so threatened in this line of work, > David, > > why don't you just find another? I think the supermarket is always > > looking for bag boys. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Discussion of SQR, Brio Software's database reporting language > > [mailto:SQR-USERS@list.iex.net] On Behalf Of Thomas White > > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 12:47 PM > > To: SQR-USERS@list.iex.net > > Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List > > > > I remember when I was 14 and I tried to get others in trouble. Geez > > what a idiot. Going to write to employers and try to get people fired > > because they offended you??? I don't know who you work for but I'm > > certain managers have more important things than to deal with than a > > person emailing them about their employee's use of an educational > email > > forum. Good lord your driving us crazy. If you have enough time to > > write companies and attempt to get their employees fired because they > > offended you, then you have way more issues than can be expressed on > > this list. Get a life. Go whine to somewhere else. > > From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Sun Oct 6 12:07:43 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 11:48:32 -0500 From: the dragon Subject: Re: Doug Nichols whines again! OK, guys. Time to take the flame-war offline and do it via personal e-mails. Time to get this back on track. clark PSA: Salary <> Slavery. If you earn a salary, your employer is renting your services for 40 hours a week, not purchasing your soul. Your time is the only real finite asset that you have, and once used it can never be recovered, so don't waste it by giving it away. "Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you." Carl Sandburg (1878 - 1967) _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Sun Oct 6 11:45:39 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 12:22:08 -0400 From: Dietrich Schmitz Subject: Re: Reply to Sam and others on the SQR Users List In Affirmation: Good Lord. Snap out of it! Please. Go somewhere else with your unprofessionalism and let this forum be. Man overboard!! :) >>> MBAUTIGER@AOL.COM 10/05/02 12:48 PM >>> I remember when I was 14 and I tried to get others in trouble. Geez what a idiot. Going to write to employers and try to get people fired because they offended you??? I don't know who you work for but I'm certain managers have more important things than to deal with than a person emailing them about their employee's use of an educational email forum. Good lord your driving us crazy. If you have enough time to write companies and attempt to get their employees fired because they offended you, then you have way more issues than can be expressed on this list. Get a life. Go whine to somewhere else. From owner-sqr-users@list.iex.net Sat Oct 5 19:39:29 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 17:08:08 -0700 From: Nicolas Moscaritolo Subject: SQR @ Brio 2002 Worldwide User Conference SQR Developers Worldwide Brio Software extends a special invitation to you Whether you are a new user of SQR or a long-time fan of this powerful language, you will not want to miss these unique opportunities at: Brio 2002: The Business Performance Summit November 7-9, 2002 Sheraton San Diego Hotel & Marina SQR Developers Workshop - Talk directly with Brio developers - Provide input to Brio about the future of SQR - Gain insight into how others are using SQR - Build your network with fellow SQR developers - Participate in an on-going capacity through the Brio SQR Steering Committee All participants in the SQR Developers Workshop will receive a FREE, autographed manuscript of the soon to be published "Harnessing SQR, A Practical & Proven Methodology of Developing Enterprise-Wide Report Suites by Leveraging the Power & Flexibility of SQR", written by Darrin Alan Miller, SQR Evangelist. SQR Developer Course - Tutorials - How to use SQR to produce high-quality web-deployed content - Hands-on format - Write more efficient code - Integrate with other technologies - Learn advanced techniques for developing complex reports SQR Sessions - Over 10 SQR dedicated sessions - Hear directly from customers and partners on how they are using SQR - Learn more about topics like - Build dashboards with SQR - Use SQR to Extract, Transform and Move Data - Page level security and secure busting - Plus a whole lot more! For more information go to http://www.brio.com/company/brio2002/sqr/ Register 3 or more and Save at Brio 2002! Special International Rates also available. Check it out at https://hera.eeginc.com/brio/userconference/registration.cfm From sqr-users-admin@sqrug.org Tue Oct 22 20:26:10 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 17:04:23 -0500 From: "Kent Parker" Subject: [sqr-users] Numeric Edit Mask --=_7529F1ED.5E3F4335 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm writing an interface with SQR and need to create signed numeric fields = with the positive fields showing a plus sign (+) and the negative fields = showing a negative sign (-) at the beginning of each. Do you guys have a solution for this? Thanks a million. --=_7529F1ED.5E3F4335 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm writing an interface with SQR and need to create signed numeric = fields=20 with the positive fields showing a plus sign (+) and the negative fields = showing=20 a negative sign (-) at the beginning of each.
 
Do you guys have a solution for this?
 
Thanks a million.
--=_7529F1ED.5E3F4335-- _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users From sqr-users-admin@sqrug.org Wed Oct 23 10:26:32 2002 From: "Arnon Oppenheimer" Subject: Re: [sqr-users] Numeric Edit Mask Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:06:11 +0200 Use IF : IF #val > 0 print '+' (1,1) print #val () ELSE print #val (1,1) END-IF or cond: let $x=cond(#val>0,'+' || Edit(#val,'888888'),Edit(#val,'88888888')) Regards, Arnon Oppenheimer ------------------------------------------------------------------- SEMECH SOFTWARE MARKETING LTD. TEL : (972) - 3 - 5333144 FAX : (972) - 3 - 5333132 Email: arnono@semech.co.il ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Kent Parker To: sqr-users@sqrug.org Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 12:04 AM Subject: [sqr-users] Numeric Edit Mask I'm writing an interface with SQR and need to create signed numeric fields with the positive fields showing a plus sign (+) and the negative fields showing a negative sign (-) at the beginning of each. Do you guys have a solution for this? Thanks a million. _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users From sqr-users-admin@sqrug.org Tue Oct 22 20:48:00 2002 From: "Natee Kertsomjit" Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 03:20:42 +0000 Subject: [sqr-users] performance of running sqr on Brio Builder Hi all, I have a problem about performance of running sqr on Brio Builder. When run sqr in Brio Builder, report can generate very slow. (1.30 hours) I cut just Sql from sqr to run in Toad program. I found that sql can retrieve a result in 5-6 seconds. I tried to debug by printing log file, report is really slow because of query part. Although I tried to adjust my select statement, nothing change. (very …very slow) How can I improve performance of Brio (solution for Brio Builder and Brio Portal also.)? Is there any configuration that can help it be faster? Thank you in advance. Natee _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access for only $21.95/month.  Try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users From sqr-users-admin@sqrug.org Wed Oct 23 11:10:13 2002 Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 11:03:10 -0500 (EST) From: Don Mellen Subject: Re: [sqr-users] performance of running sqr on Brio Builder On Tue, 22 Oct 2002, Natee Kertsomjit wrote: > Hi all, > > I have a problem about performance of running sqr on Brio Builder. > When run sqr in Brio Builder, report can generate very slow. (1.30 hours) I > cut just Sql from sqr to run in Toad program. I found that sql can retrieve > a result in 5-6 seconds. > I tried to debug by printing log file, report is really slow because of > query part. > Although I tried to adjust my select statement, nothing change. (very …very > slow) > > How can I improve performance of Brio (solution for Brio Builder and Brio > Portal also.)? Is there any configuration that can help it be faster? There should not be that big a difference, so some things to consider... 1) Are Toad and Brio Report Builder connecting to the DB in the same way? (native drivers vs odbc can result in noticable performance differences) 2) Did you run Toad and Brio Report Builder from the same machine? 3) Did you get *all* the SQL (leaving off an "order by" or "group by" can cause major differences) 4) How much processing do you do in the begin-select? Are there procedures being called for each row / each break that would perform another select that might be slowing it down? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Donald Mellen | Ray Ontko & Co. - Richmond, IN - http://www.ontko.com/ donm@ontko.com | "In the beginning, there was nothing, which exploded" _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users From sqr-users-admin@sqrug.org Tue Oct 22 19:49:29 2002 From: Nathan Stratton Treadway Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:46:14 -0500 Subject: [sqr-users] New sqr-users mailing list setup As you may have noticed, the sqr-users mailing list suddenly ceased operations on October 6. This was due to a machine failure at the ISP who had been hosting the list. Unfortunately, the ISP did not keep a backup of the mailing list machine, which meant that they could not restore the subscription list after the failure. Furthermore, instead of re-installing L-Soft's "Listserv" software that they had been using, the ISP is now using GNU's "MailMan" as their mailing list software. And, finally, they were changing the host name of their list server, so the old e-mail address of the mailing list would not have continued to work. Since we are already using MailMan to host the rm-users list at SQRUG and were going to have to go through the confusion of rebuilding the list at a new address anyway, I decided just to go ahead and move the sqr-users mailing list to SQRUG. This message is the first message to be sent out using the new setup. Luckily, I had saved my own backup of the list of subscribers, so we don't have to start the list from scratch. However, the backup was from about 10 days before the failure, so it was a bit out of date. I've attempted to update it with subscription changes that had occured since the backup, but there are probably a few changes that I missed. If you have received this message and thought you had been unsubscribed from the list earlier, please see below for the unsubscribe URL. (Also, people who subscribed to the list just before the failure, or who had "concealed" their subscription, may be missing from the new list. Hopefully, those people will notice this message on the web and re-subscribe themselves....) Finally, the digest setting of the subscriptions was not saved, so if you want to receive your list messages in digest mode, you'll need to change your subscription settings. To subscribe to or unsubscribe from the list, or change your subscription options, please see http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users/ To send messages to the new list, address them to "sqr-users@sqrug.org". Note that, as before, you'll need to send your message from the address that is subscribed to the list in order for it to be distributed. Also, the new setup includes a filter to prevent non-text attachments from being sent out over the the list. This will help keep the list free of viruses, as well as making the list archives easier to browse and avoiding attachments that other subscribers can't open. If you send an excluded attachment type, you will receive a message from the filter software explaining what was filtered. Anyway, welcome to the new sqr-users! Nathan Stratton Treadway sqr-users list manager ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nathan Stratton Treadway | nathanst@ontko.com | Mid-Atlantic region Software consulting services | Ray Ontko & Co. | http://www.ontko.com/ _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users From sqr-users-admin@sqrug.org Wed Oct 23 11:33:19 2002 From: Info - Nelson Richter Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:10:59 -0300 Subject: [sqr-users] Charset changed from roman8 to iso_1 Hello All, We've just changed our Sybase charset table from roman8 (default) to iso-1 and now some characters (like "Ç","á","é", for instance) are being printed incorrectly with SQR reports. Has anyone aware of how to print it correctly? I have to change the results in ISO_1 charset format. Thanks in advance Nelson Richter richter@zaffari.com.br Cia Zaffari Com Ind Porto Alegre - Brazil _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users From sqr-users-admin@sqrug.org Wed Oct 23 13:09:19 2002 From: NEDOLPH@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:36:11 EDT Subject: Re: [sqr-users] Charset changed from roman8 to iso_1 (I assume here an HP LaserJet and it assumes the LaserJet contains the font and symbol set you want internally.) I don't exactly understand. 1. Do you want to force the printer to print Roman-8 and override the ISO-1 set (s/b fairly easy) OR 2. Do you want to keep the ISO-1 set and "tweak" a few individual characters on the fly? (somewhat harder) If 1. try encoding Escape (8U to a variable $fixFont [That is: char 27, Open parenthesis, the digit 8, and a capital U no spaces] Then print $fixfont at the top of the job and after any time the printer does a reset (Escape E) You might need to do this at the top of each page... This should force the laser jet to adopt the roman 8 symbol set. If your problem is 2. above, that would require a bit more thought. Hope this helps NDolph _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users From sqr-users-admin@sqrug.org Wed Oct 23 15:36:13 2002 From: Info - Nelson Richter Subject: RES: [sqr-users] Charset changed from roman8 to iso_1 Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:28:35 -0300 NDolph, The first option is the correct one. I'll try your suggestion. Thanks -----Mensagem original----- De: NEDOLPH@aol.com [mailto:NEDOLPH@aol.com] Enviada em: quarta-feira, 23 de outubro de 2002 14:36 Para: sqr-users@sqrug.org Assunto: Re: [sqr-users] Charset changed from roman8 to iso_1 (I assume here an HP LaserJet and it assumes the LaserJet contains the font and symbol set you want internally.) I don't exactly understand. 1. Do you want to force the printer to print Roman-8 and override the ISO-1 set (s/b fairly easy) OR 2. Do you want to keep the ISO-1 set and "tweak" a few individual characters on the fly? (somewhat harder) If 1. try encoding Escape (8U to a variable $fixFont [That is: char 27, Open parenthesis, the digit 8, and a capital U no spaces] Then print $fixfont at the top of the job and after any time the printer does a reset (Escape E) You might need to do this at the top of each page... This should force the laser jet to adopt the roman 8 symbol set. If your problem is 2. above, that would require a bit more thought. Hope this helps NDolph _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users From sqr-users-admin@sqrug.org Wed Oct 23 19:41:37 2002 Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 20:40:01 -0400 From: SJohn22151@aol.com Subject: [sqr-users] Unsusscribe unsuscribe _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users From sqr-users-admin@sqrug.org Thu Oct 24 09:04:42 2002 From: Colin Abbott Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:02:54 -0400 Subject: [sqr-users] Calling a procedure that returns a REF Cursor Hi, I am trying to call a stored procedure in our Oracle 8.1.7 database that returns the results as a REF Cursor OUT parameter. I am able to call it within a BEGIN-SQL block but only if it returns one row, if It returns more then one row I have to assign all the variables to an array and then in SQR use the array. looking through the documentation I came upon BEGIN-EXECUTE which is supposed to execute procedures that return rowsets and you can nest a BEGIN-SELECT within the BEGIN-EXECUTE to loop through all the rows that the procedure returns. This would be great except I can not get it to work, does anyone have an example of using BEGIN-EXECUTE to call an Oracle procedure? Thanks Colin ======================================= Colin Abbott Analyst (Finance) Information Systems Resources McGill University E-mail: Colin.Abbott@MCGILL.CA Fax: 1-514-398-8252 ======================================= _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users From sqr-users-admin@sqrug.org Thu Oct 24 09:14:08 2002 From: Peter Burton Subject: RE: [sqr-users] Calling a procedure that returns a REF Cursor Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 07:12:53 -0700 Colin, This functionality is planned to be in SQR 8.0. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Colin Abbott [mailto:colin.abbott@mcgill.ca] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:03 AM To: sqr-users@sqrug.org Subject: [sqr-users] Calling a procedure that returns a REF Cursor Hi, I am trying to call a stored procedure in our Oracle 8.1.7 database that returns the results as a REF Cursor OUT parameter. I am able to call it within a BEGIN-SQL block but only if it returns one row, if It returns more then one row I have to assign all the variables to an array and then in SQR use the array. looking through the documentation I came upon BEGIN-EXECUTE which is supposed to execute procedures that return rowsets and you can nest a BEGIN-SELECT within the BEGIN-EXECUTE to loop through all the rows that the procedure returns. This would be great except I can not get it to work, does anyone have an example of using BEGIN-EXECUTE to call an Oracle procedure? Thanks Colin ======================================= Colin Abbott Analyst (Finance) Information Systems Resources McGill University E-mail: Colin.Abbott@MCGILL.CA Fax: 1-514-398-8252 ======================================= _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users From sqr-users-admin@sqrug.org Thu Oct 24 09:18:06 2002 From: Nicolas Moscaritolo Subject: RE: [sqr-users] Calling a procedure that returns a REF Cursor Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 07:17:29 -0700 This functionality (REF procs) for ORACLE (and DB2) will be available in SQR v8. Nick Moscaritolo Sr. Systems Consultant North America - East Region Brio Software(tm) (508) 309-3099 nickmosc@brio.com www.brio.com Celebrate the Brains Behind Business Intelligence at Brio 2002: The Business Performance Summit. November 7-9, 2002 in San Diego, California. www.brio.com/company/brio2002/ -----Original Message----- From: Colin Abbott [mailto:colin.abbott@mcgill.ca] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:03 AM To: sqr-users@sqrug.org Subject: [sqr-users] Calling a procedure that returns a REF Cursor Hi, I am trying to call a stored procedure in our Oracle 8.1.7 database that returns the results as a REF Cursor OUT parameter. I am able to call it within a BEGIN-SQL block but only if it returns one row, if It returns more then one row I have to assign all the variables to an array and then in SQR use the array. looking through the documentation I came upon BEGIN-EXECUTE which is supposed to execute procedures that return rowsets and you can nest a BEGIN-SELECT within the BEGIN-EXECUTE to loop through all the rows that the procedure returns. This would be great except I can not get it to work, does anyone have an example of using BEGIN-EXECUTE to call an Oracle procedure? Thanks Colin ======================================= Colin Abbott Analyst (Finance) Information Systems Resources McGill University E-mail: Colin.Abbott@MCGILL.CA Fax: 1-514-398-8252 ======================================= _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users From sqr-users-admin@sqrug.org Thu Oct 24 09:57:07 2002 Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:56:51 -0500 From: "Lindquist, Maria" Subject: [sqr-users] ORA-00001: unique constraint (SYSADM.PS_VENDOR_SF_TBL) violated I keep getting the following error when trying to run a process and I just can't seem to figure out where the problem is. I have looked at the place where they say the problem is and I just don't know what the problem is. Any ideas? Error on table insert Program stop on request $Sql-Failed in GET-NEXT-SEQ-NUM sql error: ORA-00001: unique constraint (SYSADM.PS_VENDOR_SF_TBL) violated Voucher ID: 00000258 Vendor ID: 0000000041 Error on line 1834: (SQR 3301) Program stopped by user request. *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Maria K Lindquist mlindqui@uwc.edu Information Systems Programmer/Analyst University of Wisconsin Colleges 780 Regent St, PO Box 8680, Madison, WI 53708-8680 Phone: 608.265.2677 / Fax: 608.265.5770 *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users From sqr-users-admin@sqrug.org Thu Oct 24 10:32:08 2002 From: "Stephen Keen" Subject: RE: [sqr-users] ORA-00001: unique constraint (SYSADM.PS_VENDOR_SF_TBL) violated Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:37:29 -0400 you are trying to insert into the table where a record exists that has the exact data as the record you are trying to insert. All keys are the same Steve -----Original Message----- From: sqr-users-admin@sqrug.org [mailto:sqr-users-admin@sqrug.org]On Behalf Of Lindquist, Maria Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:57 AM To: sqr-users@sqrug.org Subject: [sqr-users] ORA-00001: unique constraint (SYSADM.PS_VENDOR_SF_TBL) violated I keep getting the following error when trying to run a process and I just can't seem to figure out where the problem is. I have looked at the place where they say the problem is and I just don't know what the problem is. Any ideas? Error on table insert Program stop on request $Sql-Failed in GET-NEXT-SEQ-NUM sql error: ORA-00001: unique constraint (SYSADM.PS_VENDOR_SF_TBL) violated Voucher ID: 00000258 Vendor ID: 0000000041 Error on line 1834: (SQR 3301) Program stopped by user request. *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Maria K Lindquist mlindqui@uwc.edu Information Systems Programmer/Analyst University of Wisconsin Colleges 780 Regent St, PO Box 8680, Madison, WI 53708-8680 Phone: 608.265.2677 / Fax: 608.265.5770 *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users From sqr-users-admin@sqrug.org Thu Oct 24 10:41:12 2002 From: "Genady Sosnovsky" Subject: Re: [sqr-users] ORA-00001: unique constraint (SYSADM.PS_VENDOR_SF_TBL) violated Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:40:12 -0500 It seems you are getting a new value from a sequence, and then the value is used in your INSERT. Try to identify that sequence and compare its next value to the max value of that field where it is inserted. If the field value is larger then recreate sequence with a large starting number. Genady Sosnovsky * Ray Ontko & Co. genadys@ontko.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lindquist, Maria" To: Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:56 AM Subject: [sqr-users] ORA-00001: unique constraint (SYSADM.PS_VENDOR_SF_TBL) violated > I keep getting the following error when trying to run a process and I > just can't seem to figure out where the problem is. I have looked at the > place where they say the problem is and I just don't know what the > problem is. Any ideas? > > > Error on table insert > Program stop on request > $Sql-Failed in GET-NEXT-SEQ-NUM > sql error: ORA-00001: unique constraint (SYSADM.PS_VENDOR_SF_TBL) > violated > Voucher ID: 00000258 > Vendor ID: 0000000041 > > Error on line 1834: > (SQR 3301) Program stopped by user request. > > > *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ > Maria K Lindquist > mlindqui@uwc.edu > Information Systems Programmer/Analyst > University of Wisconsin Colleges > 780 Regent St, PO Box 8680, Madison, WI 53708-8680 > Phone: 608.265.2677 / Fax: 608.265.5770 > *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* > > > _______________________________________________ > sqr-users mailing list > sqr-users@sqrug.org > http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users > _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users From sqr-users-admin@sqrug.org Thu Oct 24 10:13:27 2002 From: Nicolas Moscaritolo Subject: RE: [sqr-users] ORA-00001: unique constraint (SYSADM.PS_VENDOR_SF _TBL) violated Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:12:39 -0700 You are trying to perform an INSERT to a table but you have a CONSTRAINST on the table to only allow certain data. Since the error is "UNIQUE", that means that you have an INDEX on that field (or group of fields) and you cannot have duplicates. Nick Moscaritolo Sr. Systems Consultant North America - East Region Brio Software(tm) (508) 309-3099 nickmosc@brio.com www.brio.com Celebrate the Brains Behind Business Intelligence at Brio 2002: The Business Performance Summit. November 7-9, 2002 in San Diego, California. www.brio.com/company/brio2002/ -----Original Message----- From: Lindquist, Maria [mailto:mlindqui@uwc.edu] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:57 AM To: sqr-users@sqrug.org Subject: [sqr-users] ORA-00001: unique constraint (SYSADM.PS_VENDOR_SF_TBL) violated I keep getting the following error when trying to run a process and I just can't seem to figure out where the problem is. I have looked at the place where they say the problem is and I just don't know what the problem is. Any ideas? Error on table insert Program stop on request $Sql-Failed in GET-NEXT-SEQ-NUM sql error: ORA-00001: unique constraint (SYSADM.PS_VENDOR_SF_TBL) violated Voucher ID: 00000258 Vendor ID: 0000000041 Error on line 1834: (SQR 3301) Program stopped by user request. *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Maria K Lindquist mlindqui@uwc.edu Information Systems Programmer/Analyst University of Wisconsin Colleges 780 Regent St, PO Box 8680, Madison, WI 53708-8680 Phone: 608.265.2677 / Fax: 608.265.5770 *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users From sqr-users-admin@sqrug.org Thu Oct 24 18:50:13 2002 From: Bruce Young Subject: RE: [sqr-users] ORA-00001: unique constraint (SYSADM.PS_VENDOR_SF _TBL) violated Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:49:01 +1000 The problem as I see it is there is an insert into this table SYSADM.PS_VENDOR_SF_TBL which violates the unique index. I have that index as SETID, VENDOR_ID,BUSINESS_UNIT,REFUND_NBR_CREATION_DT. If you can display the values for the insert being attempted that sould help in your resolution of the problem. BTW that index is as per HS Higher ED 7.6 ANZ so your unique index may be a little diferent. Your DBA will be able to help you out on that. Hope this helps, Bruce -----Original Message----- From: Lindquist, Maria [mailto:mlindqui@uwc.edu] Sent: Friday, 25 October 2002 00:57 To: sqr-users@sqrug.org Subject: [sqr-users] ORA-00001: unique constraint (SYSADM.PS_VENDOR_SF_TBL) violated I keep getting the following error when trying to run a process and I just can't seem to figure out where the problem is. I have looked at the place where they say the problem is and I just don't know what the problem is. Any ideas? Error on table insert Program stop on request $Sql-Failed in GET-NEXT-SEQ-NUM sql error: ORA-00001: unique constraint (SYSADM.PS_VENDOR_SF_TBL) violated Voucher ID: 00000258 Vendor ID: 0000000041 Error on line 1834: (SQR 3301) Program stopped by user request. *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Maria K Lindquist mlindqui@uwc.edu Information Systems Programmer/Analyst University of Wisconsin Colleges 780 Regent St, PO Box 8680, Madison, WI 53708-8680 Phone: 608.265.2677 / Fax: 608.265.5770 *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users From sqr-users-admin@sqrug.org Thu Oct 24 10:25:15 2002 Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:24:20 -0700 From: Ken Boettger Subject: Re: [sqr-users] ORA-00001: unique constraint (SYSADM.PS_VENDOR_SF_TBL)violated I do not know what database you are on, but this sounds like a referential integrity problem... maybe trying to insert a code for one of the fields that is not on the TaBLe. And if I recall correctly, I think I obtain similar errors when insert a null value for a field that is required. Might look there too. -Ken >>> mlindqui@uwc.edu 10/24/02 07:56AM >>> I keep getting the following error when trying to run a process and I just can't seem to figure out where the problem is. I have looked at the place where they say the problem is and I just don't know what the problem is. Any ideas? Error on table insert Program stop on request $Sql-Failed in GET-NEXT-SEQ-NUM sql error: ORA-00001: unique constraint (SYSADM.PS_VENDOR_SF_TBL) violated Voucher ID: 00000258 Vendor ID: 0000000041 Error on line 1834: (SQR 3301) Program stopped by user request. *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Maria K Lindquist mlindqui@uwc.edu Information Systems Programmer/Analyst University of Wisconsin Colleges 780 Regent St, PO Box 8680, Madison, WI 53708-8680 Phone: 608.265.2677 / Fax: 608.265.5770 *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users From sqr-users-admin@sqrug.org Thu Oct 24 17:25:51 2002 Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 15:24:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Subject: [sqr-users] adding directory path to the source argument Hi, Is it possible to add a directory path in the source argument of DECLARE-IMAGE? I have to retrieve a logo from a different directory other than the current directory and I'm not sure if it can be done inthe source argument. If it is possible how do I code the directory path. I am currently running the sqr in a UNIX server and my sqt/inc pgms are in /caa/rel/server/sqr and my bitmaps are in /caa/rel/server/config, we want to maintain all bitmaps in different directory. Thanks, Carry __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________ sqr-users mailing list sqr-users@sqrug.org http://www.sqrug.org/mailman/listinfo/sqr-users From sqr-users-admin@sqrug.org Thu Oct 24 18:27:20 2002 From: "David Brawner" Subject: RE: [sqr-users] adding directory path to the source argument Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:25:56 -0400 I have never had a problem using a full path reference to a file. I have even mixed mapped drive with directory path references as in this statement; *** let $call = '\\irm03\apps\maximo\sqr6\sqrwt.exe ''''\\irm03\apps\maximo\sqr6\reports\woprint.sqt max411t/maximo@mxmp @w:\spl\prm '''''|| $p2 call system using $call #status wait *** Dave -----Original Message----- From: sqr-users-admin@sqrug.org [mailto:sqr-users-admin@sqrug.org]On Behalf Of CBatiao Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 6:25 PM To: sqr-users@sqrug.org Subject: [sqr-users] adding directory path to the source arg